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  • FOSBR Quarterly Meeting: April 20, 2018
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Author Topic: FOSBR Quarterly meeting - Friday 20 April 7.15pm, Alma Church Hall BS8 2ES (CFN)  (Read 8070 times)
grahame
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« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2018, 09:33:23 »


I'm sorry I responded defensively to what I felt was a type-casting of the FOSBR approach with what can be seen as a return, and unfair, typecasting of yours, Graham.


In turn, I'm sorry you see it as unfair typecasting, Tina.   You'll have noted upthread my concern at the adversarial slant put on the meeting by the Bristol post, and my sad conclusion that there was multiple published evidence from FoSBR» (Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways - site) that such a slant was not purely an error of translation by the newspaper.  The meeting itself was a tricky one for you - a veritable flood of topics which probably could not be put off to another meeting,  and a vocal audience, members of which made it very clear that they were such a mix that there was little common level ground even if the overall sentiment was a desire for transport improvement.
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Christina Biggs FOSBR
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« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2018, 23:24:50 »

I think what I was reacting to was the implication that by even having a meeting with GWR (Great Western Railway) the day before, so that I could report back to the meeting some of the reasons (some new) for the March cancellations, I was taking valuable energy and time away from those two GWR staff members to actually sorting out the problems. There was also the idea that we were not adding value to the situation by asking for the real reasons for some of the delays and trying to elicit a judgement from them as to the fitness of the Class 166. In defence, I would mention that we had also invited SCRP to the meeting and there were some very insightful points from them at the meeting. I was not personally there as my daughter was ill but I had written the agenda and trusted the two FOSBR (Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways) representatives to ask all the questions and record the answers which they did. As you know I then fed this information to someone we both know, which obviously will take up some of his time too, but I would argue that person is paid for that precise role, and that that would not have taken time away from solving the problems. Or maybe it would and as I commented elsewhere "you can't win".

In terms of "multiple published evidence" from FOSBR - well, "protest meeting" does not necessarily mean adversarial, it implied that we were going to be welcoming passengers to give their story and state what for them were the most distressing aspects of their passenger experience. That for us is a valuable part of understanding what passenger priorities and in turn would be part of what you call the "two-way feedback" - so in our Thursday GWR meeting we invited a regular passenger along who explained his issue of not being told until the last minute whether the train was being cancelled or "merely" late. Obviously this could be unavoidable as GWR delay the decision to cancel altogether until the last minute because they don't want to unnecessarily turn back the service, and it was very useful for the passenger to then meet the very GWR person in that uncomfortable situation. But then again, we are taking him away from his job. Except - could it not be useful for both of these two people to meet in a small room, with people around, to appreciate how the other feels? And could that then not inform the policy of when to cancel and more crucially, when to tell the passengers that the decision has been made to cancel?

Ok, let's get to the crux - a certain FOSBR spokesperson saying GWR had "done nothing". Well, at least the Post attributed that opinion to the right person, and I can also say that person did indeed have that opinion. "Nothing" can be interpreted in terms of "nothing really game-changing" and perhaps the knowledge that GWR were swapping in trainsets like mad across the network to keep the Beach afloat might not have made much impression on that person. One could argue that swapping in and out is not a very robust solution as a convenient train is not always there, and the management should have got to work on a more robust solution, and looked either at the rail-worthiness of the trainsets (and made a call as to whether they are up to scratch or were just too clapped out) or getting more flex into the timetable so there is less tight turnarounds and a more resilient timetable. We knew early on that changing the timetable was not an option within the franchise, but one result from the January DfT» (Department for Transport - about) meeting was that if you go high enough in the hierarchy, you can have authorisation to change the timetable. But it was only at Thursday's meeting that we were told "now X is interested, we might be able to do Y." Why have they not acted before? I can answer that, as for a long time we were told that as the Class 166 cascade was expected in January all would be well then - and four months later we are told that the cascade has not happened as quickly as thought. Maybe the passengers would not have tolerated a "In May all will be well". Sure thing, I understand. But as this is all going on, temporary workers in Severnside on zero hours contracts are losing a day's work here, perhaps not being re-employed - this week SevernNet have got in touch with me saying they want to write letters of concern, and who should we write to??

But I am not here to bash GWR but defend FOSBR. So what other published evidence is there that we have a fundamentally adversarial attitude to the rail industry?

So I would say that GWR meeting with us and our rail user members can help to crystallise the important issues for both the management and also the passengers. It can represent a vantage point for the management to look back, make a judgement and make a decision. But for costly decisions I would say that the management needs evidence that this is a big issue for the passengers, and that many people's jobs are being affected. That is why at the meeting I encouraged concerned passengers to write to two people - I picked out the two I considered to be people whose job it was to receive such letters, who were already knowledgeable of the issues and concerned about the situation, and I just thought that they would put the letter on a pile to be counted up and used to give more weight to their requests to people higher up.

Have I cleared the fair name of FOSBR? I should add finally that yes, we have a great mix of types in our membership and in the committee. I think it is one of the glories of our group that we rub along together, that people's angry views are heard, that some of us like to do protest meetings and listen to the rail unions, and others like to meet with the industry management (and I have been told off for asking to meet with GWR rather than planning "action"!) I think some of us have a great instinct for what is important for passengers and what the media will be interested in. Everyone knows that media coverage is almost invariably a poisoned chalice and you just sometimes have to allow them to change reality and the purpose of a meeting and just roll with it. After all, who really knows the absolutely most efficient way to direct the energies of 200-odd people? But at least there are many people in Bristol and around who love some of our more colourful characters and we censure, gag or reject those people to our great cost.

Tina
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« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2018, 00:25:47 »

When you have an operator as woeful as GWR (Great Western Railway), sometimes the only option is adversarial. When the voices of protest get loud enough those in a position to do something have two choices. Fingers in the ears going "la la la la" or pulling their finger out.

What certainly doesn't help is spokespersons for two campaign groups having a public spat.  Roll Eyes
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grahame
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« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2018, 06:04:41 »

When you have an operator as woeful as GWR (Great Western Railway), sometimes the only option is adversarial. When the voices of protest get loud enough those in a position to do something have two choices. Fingers in the ears going "la la la la" or pulling their finger out.

What certainly doesn't help is spokespersons for two campaign groups having a public spat.  Roll Eyes

There are very much times that protest is necessary / required, but then there are times that partnership is the best way to work, and there are times that it's best to let people get on. And with so many different things going on, there will likely be a mixture of these at any one time within groups and between groups. And it's really useful for the various groupings of us to take a look at those elements and balance their strategies. 

I would not agree with a blanket "public spat". That's not how I characterise this discussion. We are talking on elements of approach which differ between FoSBR» (Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways - site) and what I'm used to, but then each group has different local circumstances and each group is nothing if not creations of said local circumstances.  How it chooses to focus and act then may have an element of influence over how those local circumstances can change, though almost inevitably it's a process that's many times slower and many times more frustrating than almost everyone involved would like.  And, yes, the local economy including people's jobs suffer as the wheels turn so slowly; make no mistake that the current woeful failure to provide at least 49 out of 50 timetabled services, around which people have planned their lives, pales our discussion on this thread into insignificance.  Who's woeful failure that is -  GWR's or its provider's - is another topic.
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2018, 08:01:25 »

When you have an operator as woeful as GWR (Great Western Railway), sometimes the only option is adversarial. When the voices of protest get loud enough those in a position to do something have two choices. Fingers in the ears going "la la la la" or pulling their finger out.

What certainly doesn't help is spokespersons for two campaign groups having a public spat.  Roll Eyes

There are very much times that protest is necessary / required, but then there are times that partnership is the best way to work, and there are times that it's best to let people get on. And with so many different things going on, there will likely be a mixture of these at any one time within groups and between groups. And it's really useful for the various groupings of us to take a look at those elements and balance their strategies. 

I would not agree with a blanket "public spat". That's not how I characterise this discussion. We are talking on elements of approach which differ between FoSBR» (Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways - site) and what I'm used to, but then each group has different local circumstances and each group is nothing if not creations of said local circumstances.  How it chooses to focus and act then may have an element of influence over how those local circumstances can change, though almost inevitably it's a process that's many times slower and many times more frustrating than almost everyone involved would like.  And, yes, the local economy including people's jobs suffer as the wheels turn so slowly; make no mistake that the current woeful failure to provide at least 49 out of 50 timetabled services, around which people have planned their lives, pales our discussion on this thread into insignificance.  Who's woeful failure that is -  GWR's or its provider's - is another topic.

Do you sometimes think that some conversations are better held face to face, or at least over the phone, in order to avoid any perceived ambiguity or misunderstanding/misinterpretation?

The forum is great, but it's necessarily one dimensional.
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grahame
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« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2018, 08:13:27 »

Do you sometimes think that some conversations are better held face to face, or at least over the phone, in order to avoid any perceived ambiguity or misunderstanding/misinterpretation?

Yes. Please do not assume that there have been no such conversations.

I was not anticipating waking up to the two overnight responses on this thread.

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WelshBluebird
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« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2018, 11:31:44 »

I'll be honest, based on my experiences of the Severn Beach line over the last 8 months or so (visiting friends who moved out to Shirehampton), I do not blame anyone for taking an adversarial stance with GWR (Great Western Railway). The service has sometimes been appalling with passengers treated with either utter contempt or simply ignored. On multiple occasions I had have had to get a bus, putting myself out of pocket, and I would be surprised if I was only person in that situation.

For a great example of how it seems like GWR treat passengers - the bustituation that happened at the end of November and beginning of December took the biscuit, with them toing and froing between blaming engineering work or blaming the fact the rolling stock had to be used to provide extra capacity for the Bath Xmas market. Now that may have been genuine miscommunication from GWR. But how do you think that appears to passengers when that happens multiple weekends in a row, with staff telling passengers it won't happen next week, only for it to happen next week!

I get GWR currently have a very difficult job, but with all this going on, I really don't think you can blame anyone who feels a "protest" meeting or whatever is the only way to get themselves heard.

As an aside - I do find it quite interesting to see how different groups attempt to essentially solve the same problem. Coming from my own bubble, where I don't really have the confidence or ability to feel like I can make a difference, I just hope no one is disheartened from trying to make things better, just because different groups have different views!
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« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2018, 13:44:29 »

I certain that's the case for lots of people who need to use the Beach line on a daily basis
Don't let the fact that people have different ways of approaching this subject become a worry, we all hope for the same end result and will be working to achieve a solution,in which ever way feels best to the party concerned
There is a light at the end of the tunnel,which will arrive hopefully sooner than later.
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« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2018, 16:51:47 »

There is a light at the end of the tunnel

Which, hopefully, is a train from Temple Meads approaching Montpelier on time, and not due to be turned back at Clifton Down.  Wink
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Christina Biggs FOSBR
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« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2018, 17:25:10 »

Thanks folks!

I would like to put on record that I find these reflective conversations (both in public and private) helpful as within our FOSBR (Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways) committee we do express to each other feelings of dilemma over what approaches to use. And despite my defensiveness, I do recognise that negativity is draining, and hurtful and tarnishing to the rail user world and (as someone has suggested to me) maybe puts people off getting involved. So perhaps I should attempt to stand up to this internally and try and resolve feelings before it gets to the media, but I can assure you that we have all tried in the past and there is no quick-fix, apart from outright rejection which I think would just backfire.

Thinking over the last week or so, my thoughts over the usefulness or not of our meeting with GWR (Great Western Railway) middle management, and the usefulness or not of encouraging members to email decision makers, is returning back to my proposal of a "Cobra-style group". Surely by selecting the right level of management, and the right mix of executive decision makers, experts, providers and representatives of the travelling public, the present situation is a problem that at whatever government level necessary and funding pots around, is solveable? Are we not the human race that has got to the moon, split the atom and sussed out how to engineer DNA?


Tina
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grahame
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« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2018, 19:04:15 »

Are we not the human race that has got to the moon, split the atom and sussed out how to engineer DNA?

But these are (or were) started out as one-off capital projects with a very few people involved. Just twelve highly trained people landed on the moon and no-one is going back there, but 310,818 untrained [in travel] for the most part want to go to or from Severn Beach every year.  Far harder than getting a few to the moon??

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I would like to put on record that I find these reflective conversations (both in public and private) helpful

So do I ... and I feel they are a sign of an excellent and worthwhile consideration of where I/you/we are headed - showing signs of not being stuck in any rut but looking to move forward in the most appropriate way!
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 19:13:05 by grahame » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2018, 19:17:04 »

I've read and heard some pretty fatuous excuses for a poor train service, but comparison with lunar expeditions is probably the most tenuous.

Seriously grahame and Christina? Running a train service is about as far removed from rocket science as one can get. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2018, 19:27:58 »

I've read and heard some pretty fatuous excuses for a poor train service, but comparison with lunar expeditions is probably the most tenuous.

Seriously grahame and Christina? Running a train service is about as far removed from rocket science as one can get. Roll Eyes

It all depends on the nature of the move to alternative fuels as diesel is phased out.  From The Guardian
Quote
'It's almost a cosmic free lunch,' said Graham Ellis, organiser of the First International Field Propulsion Meeting at Sussex University. 'You would tap these quantum fluctuations and pick up free energy for your rocket as you flew through space.'
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« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2018, 20:08:54 »

I've read and heard some pretty fatuous excuses for a poor train service, but comparison with lunar expeditions is probably the most tenuous.

Seriously grahame and Christina? Running a train service is about as far removed from rocket science as one can get. Roll Eyes

It all depends on the nature of the move to alternative fuels as diesel is phased out.  From The Guardian
Quote
'It's almost a cosmic free lunch,' said Graham Ellis, organiser of the First International Field Propulsion Meeting at Sussex University. 'You would tap these quantum fluctuations and pick up free energy for your rocket as you flew through space.'

I've spilt my coffee all over the place now....... Cheesy
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« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2018, 20:52:29 »


...310,818 untrained [in travel] for the most part want to go to or from Severn Beach every year. 


Forgive me for being a pedant, but 310, 816 people a year go to or from Clifton Down. One person goes on to Shirehampton, and one goes all the way to the Beach.
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