Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 13:35 28 Mar 2024
* Man held over stabbing in front of train passengers
- How do I renew my UK passport and what is the 10-year rule?
- Easter travel warning as millions set to hit roads
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
28th Mar (1917)
Bideford, Westward Ho! and Appledore closed (link)

Train RunningCancelled
11:50 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
12:15 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
12:30 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare
13:00 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington
13:15 Swindon to Westbury
13:26 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington
13:28 Weymouth to Gloucester
13:30 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads
14:19 Westbury to Swindon
15:14 Swindon to Westbury
Short Run
08:03 London Paddington to Penzance
10:55 Paignton to London Paddington
11:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
11:29 Weymouth to Gloucester
11:48 London Paddington to Carmarthen
12:03 London Paddington to Penzance
12:42 Bristol Temple Meads to Salisbury
12:46 Avonmouth to Weston-Super-Mare
13:03 London Paddington to Plymouth
13:07 Salisbury to Bristol Temple Meads
13:10 Gloucester to Weymouth
13:26 Okehampton to Exeter Central
14:05 Salisbury to Bristol Temple Meads
16:19 Carmarthen to London Paddington
Delayed
10:04 London Paddington to Penzance
10:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
11:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
12:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
14:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 28, 2024, 13:53:33 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[142] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[80] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[56] Return of the BRUTE?
[46] If not HS2 to Manchester, how will traffic be carried?
[43] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[34] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
 
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Poll
Question: Would you like to see an easement such as this one in general UK (United Kingdom) use?  (Voting closed: March 23, 2018, 10:55:45)
Yes - 16 (59.3%)
Yes - but some wording changed - 10 (37%)
Something different is needed - 0 (0%)
No - current system works well - 0 (0%)
No - current system helps operators recover their costs - 0 (0%)
Other (please post to explain) - 1 (3.7%)
Total Voters: 26

Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Suggested easement for times that trains are not running to public timetable  (Read 3209 times)
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40690



View Profile WWW Email
« on: March 18, 2018, 10:44:48 »

There has been disquiet about the fares charged during engineering works, where those fares are in excess of the fares that passengers would normally pay.

Would a general easement (sample text here) help clarify the situation?

If the train you intended to take in the public timetable is curtailed, cancelled, retimed, delayed, overloaded or otherwise not running and is not able to convey you to within 15 minutes of that public timetable, you may take a near alternative service for your journey and pay a price not to exceed what you would have paid had trains run to the public timetable. This easement applies to train services altered in advance for planned engineering works as well as for late alterations.  For the purpose of this easement, "train" means a train or series of connecting trains and / or rail replacement bus or buses where the time normally schedued to wait at the connecting station is 5 minutes or more, or a different figure for stations with a different specified minimum connecting time. Alternative trains taken may be scheduled trains and extra public trains run by any train operating company, but passengers may not transfer to special trains or charters under this easement.

Please complete the poll. Utterly unscientific, but it will give an idea of passenger's view.

Should the vote come out in strong favour of chaining the current system, I will forward to GWR (Great Western Railway) and ask for it to be considered. Bearing in mind the mention of "Any TOC (Train Operating Company)", perhaps this is one for the Rail Delivery Group, Transport Focus, ORR» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about), or DfT» (Department for Transport - about)?  How about for Which? ?

Looking out of concern at the phenomenal amount of changes this summer and the lack of uniformity / clarity in ticket acceptance. Personally, I feel a safety net of the sort I'm suggesting would be useful. 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 12:06:35 by grahame » Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
martyjon
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1941


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2018, 11:06:12 »

As I posted in the last week when you quoted the case of Mrs X from Chippenham working in Warminster, refer the matter to Passenger Focus or whatever they call themselves now.
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40690



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2018, 11:22:48 »

As I posted in the last week when you quoted the case of Mrs X from Chippenham working in Warminster, refer the matter to Passenger Focus or whatever they call themselves now.

This forum posting is far from the only thread following up on this issue.  The intent of the thread is to provide a positive base of suggestion that can be followed through which is thorough, fair, and I hope would have public support rather than battering various parties with negative "this is unfair" brickbats whilst offering no constructive alternative.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
paul7575
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5316


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2018, 11:26:58 »

AIUI (as I understand it) there are regular temporary amendments to the routeing guide to deal with engineering diversions via intermediate points that would not normally be valid, and wouldn't they then automatically allow the journey planners to use the 'normal' fares temporarily?

Perhaps the basic problem is that the routeing rules are not being changed because they can't be bothered.  Or can't afford the resources to continually amend them back and forth.

ISTM that all the while the online planners work out the route before determining the fares, then this scenario will occur, however if you just go to a TVM (Ticket Vending Machine) on the day the normal ticket (and fare) will usually still be available - because they don't get changed for engineering work.

Paul
Logged
martyjon
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1941


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2018, 11:30:50 »

As I posted in the last week when you quoted the case of Mrs X from Chippenham working in Warminster, refer the matter to Passenger Focus or whatever they call themselves now.

This forum posting is far from the only thread following up on this issue.  The intent of the thread is to provide a positive base of suggestion that can be followed through which is thorough, fair, and I hope would have public support rather than battering various parties with negative "this is unfair" brickbats whilst offering no constructive alternative.

I agree with the thread and its aims, looked for the poll 'button' but didn't see any but I'll 'like' after I've posted this.
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40690



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2018, 11:54:46 »

... looked for the poll 'button' but didn't see any but I'll 'like' after I've posted this. ...

If members are seeing a post in "recent posts", they need to click on the subject line to see the whole thread and the poll will be at the top.

Guests (and members who are not logged in) will not see the poll. Guests need to register (free, quick, easy) and then they can contribute and vote. Register via http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?action=register
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
eightf48544
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4574


View Profile Email
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2018, 11:57:39 »

f the train you intended to take in the public timetable is curtailed, cancelled, retimed, delayed, overloaded or otherwise not running and able to convey you to within 15 minutes of that public timetable, you may take a near alternative service for your journey and pay a price not to exceed what you would have paid had trains run to the public timetable

I would make it stronger:

f the train you intended to take in the public timetable is curtailed, cancelled, retimed, delayed, overloaded or otherwise not usable for your intended journey and [/font]NOT able to convey you to within 15 minutes of that public timetable, you may take ANY alternative service for your journey and pay a price not to exceed what you would have paid had trains run to the public timetable. Advanced tickets included.

I've changed:

"otherwise not running" to "otherwise not usable for your intended journey"

Made it  "NOT able to convey you to within 15 minutes of that public timetable."

Or take out conditions in orange and just have "NOT able to convey you to within 15 minutes of that public timetable."

I've also changed near to ANY

Added Advanced tickets.

Which means it you can't get from A to B by the normal route within 15 minutes of booked time you can get any train from B and go via Z if necessary.
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40690



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2018, 12:11:21 »

If the train you intended to take in the public timetable is curtailed, cancelled, retimed, delayed, overloaded or otherwise not running and able to convey you to within 15 minutes of that public timetable, you may take a near alternative service for your journey and pay a price not to exceed what you would have paid had trains run to the public timetable

I would make it stronger:

f the train you intended to take in the public timetable is curtailed, cancelled, retimed, delayed, overloaded or otherwise not usable for your intended journey and [/font]NOT able to convey you to within 15 minutes of that public timetable, you may take ANY alternative service for your journey and pay a price not to exceed what you would have paid had trains run to the public timetable. Advanced tickets included.

I've changed:

"otherwise not running" to "otherwise not usable for your intended journey"

Made it  "NOT able to convey you to within 15 minutes of that public timetable."

Or take out conditions in orange and just have "NOT able to convey you to within 15 minutes of that public timetable."

I've also changed near to ANY

Added Advanced tickets.

Which means it you can't get from A to B by the normal route within 15 minutes of booked time you can get any train from B and go via Z if necessary.


I have added the words "is not" in the original - in italics to show readers where - as it clarifies the wording without changing meaning or strength.   The other changes suggested ... I will wait for others to comment before altering - I shouldn't alter something after people have started to vote.    Advance tickets are included without the need to specify them explicitly.

Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
PhilWakely
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2007



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2018, 12:42:34 »

Whilst I agree with both grahame and eightf48544, ...... What is the definition of 'the Public Timetable'?

In the case of the Newbury blockade and the shifting of the 1903 PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains)-PLY» (Plymouth - next trains) to an 1857 departure and the addition that Super Off-Peaks were not valid on that revised service, the argument would be that the revision had become the public timetable as it had been publicised well inadvance.
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40690



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2018, 12:51:42 »

Whilst I agree with both grahame and eightf48544, ...... What is the definition of 'the Public Timetable'?

In the case of the Newbury blockade and the shifting of the 1903 PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains)-PLY» (Plymouth - next trains) to an 1857 departure and the addition that Super Off-Peaks were not valid on that revised service, the argument would be that the revision had become the public timetable as it had been publicised well inadvance.

Good question - I thought about the wording of that and what I was intending / suggesting.  It's the timetable as published / printed to run regularly from the 10th December to 15th May, 16th May to 9th September, 10th September to December 11th. It's the timetable under which the train operator conforms to their franchise commitment.  It's what runs on a normal day in a week that there are no engineering works or other special changes. 

"Normal timetable for that day of the week at that time of year if there were no engineering, emergency or other changes"?

As an aside, I find myself wondering what effect train changes for Glastonbury and for the Gold Cup have - whether any cheaper timetabled trains are lost as stock is borrowed, leaving other travellers with higher fares?  Not something I've heard of - does it happen?
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
Sixty3Closure
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 501


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2018, 17:56:59 »

I agree with the aims but not sure who or how you would what decide 'over loaded' meant? Is it I can't board because its impossible (who says?) or I choose not to because its very overcrowded or because I can't get a seat when I normally do?
Logged
plymothian
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 822


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2018, 20:34:09 »

"If a train published to run in the biannual public timetable is curtailed, revised, cancelled or re-timed, passengers may board the next nearest scheduled train before or after that train with no change to the restrictions appropriate for the original train and will incur no additional penalty in order to complete their intended journey."

"If a train published to run in the biannual public timetable is curtailed, revised, cancelled or re-timed, passengers may board any scheduled train with no change to the restrictions appropriate for the original train and will incur no additional penalty in order to complete their intended journey within 15 minutes of the original published arrival time."
Logged

Please be aware that only the first 4 words of this post will be platformed on this message board.
martyjon
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1941


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2018, 20:49:01 »

I would remove any linking to a time limit on the arrival time using an alternative route. Can you travel with the current timetable Westbury - Bath - Chippenham - Melksham and still arrive within 15 minutes of otherwise scheduled time, particularly if one is in a motorised wheelchair.
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page