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Author Topic: Sewweb - South East Wales and West of England Business link  (Read 10143 times)
johnneyw
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« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2019, 15:45:18 »

So it's very much about how you break the idea at the moment. There's that old adage about quietly making a good suggestion and then letting the recipients think it was their bright idea all along.
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« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2019, 16:25:31 »

Some might see grahame as being slightly cagey there, but as someone who has worked with him from the beginning on the SEWWEB concept, I totally understand where he is coming from. What you may not know is that since our last proposal release, we've had a huge range of conversations with relevant groups, organisations and individuals, and I'm sure you'll understand that there is no way that everyone would agree on everything during such a process.

Let me tell you where I personally am coming from. As some of you will know, I've been involved with the campaign for improved services at Pilning since 2006, and marvelled at how people and groups as diverse as Chris Grayling in 2006 through to the fantastic efforts of Pilning Station Group today have rallied to the cause. You don't go through that without becoming attached to the current Pilning Station site, and I definitely have over the years. Will I think it wonderful if they succeed in getting more trains to call at the right times at the current Pilning Station site? Of course I will. Will I be there cheering them on when those first trains arrive? You bet I will. Do I have my doubts as to whether this is likely to happen at the current station site? I'd be lying if I said I didn't, and that's why I've assisted grahame in formulating plans to relocate Pilning Station.

In order to be as sure as we can be that we are persuing the right way forward, we examined 3 different options side by side to better understand the challenges involved with bringing them to fruition. As the architect of the current SEWWEB proposal, grahame examined the case for relocation of Pilning Station to the B4055 (the Pilning Westgate option). As a long-time campaigner for improved services at the current Pilning Station site, I examined the case for a renovated/rebuilt/expanded station on the current site. As a third option, the late Simon Norton examined the case for a relocated Pilning Station to a site on the A403.

Key challenges identified with the case for the Pilning Westgate option included strong local opposition to anything perceived to increase traffic along the B4055. Indeed, it is because of such opposition that the main entrance to Westgate is round the other side on the A403 - https://www.gazetteseries.co.uk/news/10709564.damage-limitation-campaign-launched-to-offset-impact-of-westgate-development-in-pilning/

Also, due to local concerns raised about the anticipated increase in volume of through traffic upon completion of the new M49 junction, South Gloucestershire Council have authorised significant traffic calming measures in Pilning and Easter Compton in order to counter this - https://consultations.southglos.gov.uk/consult.ti/Easter_Compton_Pilning_TC/consultationHome

The Pilning traffic calming measures extend all the way along the B4055 from Redwick Crossroads right through Pilning village to our proposed Pilning Station site - https://consultations.southglos.gov.uk/gf2.ti/f/971970/43213861.1/PDF/-/T424198003_GA_REV_A.pdf - and anyone trying to access our site by car along the B4055 is going to find that very difficult to do as a result, and will make a very visible addition to local traffic as they struggle through.

Having weighed up the challenges involved with all 3 potential sites, we came to the view that the Pilning Westgate option still represented the best way forward, but we took on board everything we had learned from the process and adjusted the Pilning Westgate proposal accordingly. Therefore, when you compare the latest proposal that grahame has posted with earlier iterations, you will see that we have dealt with the challenges identified, and also how we have dealt with the challenges identified.

As a result, I feel that the overall SEWWEB proposals are even more robust as a result, and I am happy to commend them to anyone.
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grahame
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« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2019, 12:05:19 »

From Wales online

Quote
Official house price figures confirm the huge boom in property values in areas near the Severn bridges

Houses near the Severn Bridge have rocketed in value since the end of the tolls, figures released today suggest.

Areas in Torfaen, Newport and Blaenau Gwent have seen house prices grown by more than 10% compared to a year ago, according to UK (United Kingdom) Government figures.

Since December 17, 2018, motorists no longer have to stop and pay to enter Wales via the M48 Severn Bridge and the Second Severn Crossing.

In anticipation of the big day, houses prices in areas began to rise in earnest last year, with average house sales in Monmouthshire shooting up by 13.2%.

But it stretches back further than that. Since news of plans to abolish the tolls were announced in July 2017, estate agents in the area have been reporting an influx of potential buyers from across the Severn Estuary.

You can read about the families who have moved from Bristol to make Wales their home here.

Very much a new market for a park and ride just in England then?   People who live in the newly-opening South East Wales and Monmouthshire areas, and are working in places like the the centres of Bath, Bristol ... and headed for London.   The original thought might be for people to use Bristol Parkway, but somehow access to that station from the motorways to the west doesn't always seem very easy.
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Adrian
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« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2019, 20:01:49 »

From Wales online

Quote
Official house price figures confirm the huge boom in property values in areas near the Severn bridges

Houses near the Severn Bridge have rocketed in value since the end of the tolls, figures released today suggest.

Areas in Torfaen, Newport and Blaenau Gwent have seen house prices grown by more than 10% compared to a year ago, according to UK (United Kingdom) Government figures.

Since December 17, 2018, motorists no longer have to stop and pay to enter Wales via the M48 Severn Bridge and the Second Severn Crossing.

In anticipation of the big day, houses prices in areas began to rise in earnest last year, with average house sales in Monmouthshire shooting up by 13.2%.

But it stretches back further than that. Since news of plans to abolish the tolls were announced in July 2017, estate agents in the area have been reporting an influx of potential buyers from across the Severn Estuary.

You can read about the families who have moved from Bristol to make Wales their home here.

Very much a new market for a park and ride just in England then?   People who live in the newly-opening South East Wales and Monmouthshire areas, and are working in places like the the centres of Bath, Bristol ... and headed for London.   The original thought might be for people to use Bristol Parkway, but somehow access to that station from the motorways to the west doesn't always seem very easy.

Give them a year or two suffering ever worse jams on the M4 and Bristol workers relocating to South East Wales may want to catch a train from as near home as possible.  My 30 mile commute to work is possible to do in 30 minutes by car in light traffic, but the homeward journey can often be 60 or 70 minutes due to the jams between Magor and Newport.
Just need a high-frequency electric service between Cardiff and Temple Meads and there will be no contest between taking the car or the train.
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« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2019, 20:22:17 »

From Wales online

Quote
Official house price figures confirm the huge boom in property values in areas near the Severn bridges

Houses near the Severn Bridge have rocketed in value since the end of the tolls, figures released today suggest.

Areas in Torfaen, Newport and Blaenau Gwent have seen house prices grown by more than 10% compared to a year ago, according to UK (United Kingdom) Government figures.

Since December 17, 2018, motorists no longer have to stop and pay to enter Wales via the M48 Severn Bridge and the Second Severn Crossing.

In anticipation of the big day, houses prices in areas began to rise in earnest last year, with average house sales in Monmouthshire shooting up by 13.2%.

But it stretches back further than that. Since news of plans to abolish the tolls were announced in July 2017, estate agents in the area have been reporting an influx of potential buyers from across the Severn Estuary.

You can read about the families who have moved from Bristol to make Wales their home here.

Very much a new market for a park and ride just in England then?   People who live in the newly-opening South East Wales and Monmouthshire areas, and are working in places like the the centres of Bath, Bristol ... and headed for London.   The original thought might be for people to use Bristol Parkway, but somehow access to that station from the motorways to the west doesn't always seem very easy.
But what would a station at Pilning add for those commuting into Bristol or Bath and coming from just across the bridge that would be better than them using Severn Tunnel Junction?  I can see the attraction for those commuting to the big new industrial park off the M49, but there again, from the Welsh side, if you have to drive to a station, it will probably be easier to cross the bridge and use the new junction. There are never any queues on the M49, nor over the bridge now.
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Adrian
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« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2019, 20:56:04 »

There are never any queues on the M49, nor over the bridge now.

Let's wait and see what the summer brings.
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grahame
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« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2019, 22:06:23 »

But what would a station at Pilning add for those commuting into Bristol or Bath and coming from just across the bridge that would be better than them using Severn Tunnel Junction?

A car park accessed easily off the motorway?   I would need to research on the ground, but a look at various maps suggests that Severn Tunnel Junction is close to the motorway as the crow flies, but not so close at the car drives. And that drive might take in residential streets where the extra cars would be really unwelcome.  Inputs welcome.

Quote
I can see the attraction for those commuting to the big new industrial park off the M49, but there again, from the Welsh side, if you have to drive to a station, it will probably be easier to cross the bridge and use the new junction. There are never any queues on the M49, nor over the bridge now.
Assuming you have a car, and use of that car during work hours, yes.  Does everyone of working age in Wales have their one car, though?

Give them a year or two suffering ever worse jams on the M4 and Bristol workers relocating to South East Wales may want to catch a train from as near home as possible.  My 30 mile commute to work is possible to do in 30 minutes by car in light traffic, but the homeward journey can often be 60 or 70 minutes due to the jams between Magor and Newport.

Just need a high-frequency electric service between Cardiff and Temple Meads and there will be no contest between taking the car or the train.

Depends on just what those final miles are to and from stations.

Remove the bottleneck on a popular road and attract more traffic ... and you get a new bottleneck just up the road.  Is it Magor to Newport now?

Note the talk of Llanwern, St Mellons, and through services to Ebbw Vale.   Just because there's a suggestion of a well sited station at Pilning Westgate doesn't mean its well sighted for every single journey - that's why we have over 2,500 stations each in a different place (OK, I grant you that 2 in St Budeaux are in the same place  Grin )

« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 22:18:08 by grahame » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2019, 22:33:35 »

Assuming you have a car, and use of that car during work hours, yes.  Does everyone of working age in Wales have their one car, though?

But your original suggestion was that with the removal of tolls, wouldn't that make a Park and Ride on the English side attractive. "Very much a new market for a park and ride just in England then?".  It's that argument I was challenging. If the removal of tolls is causing a big increase in house prices on the Welsh side, it's fairly clear that at the moment it's those with a car driving that increase. And so I was questioning why it makes more sense to cross the bridge. And environmentally it's surely better to minimise car mileage and get them on the train in Wales.  It's a fair point about the accessibility of STJ (Severn Tunnel Junction railway station) though. Not sure those in Pilning will like a massive parkway and traffic either though.

And yes, in answer to Adrian, you can get queues where the M49 joins the M5 on summer Friday/Saturday, but they wouldn't affect commuters from Wales using the new M49 junction.   
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Lee
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« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2019, 23:51:27 »

Not sure those in Pilning will like a massive parkway and traffic either though.

I set out in quite some detail in my earlier post the process we went through to understand and act upon the concerns of locals regarding any potential for extra traffic through Pilning, and the update grahame posted on Sunday (31 March 2019) sets out in equally great detail how we intend to prevent that from happening.
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jamestheredengine
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« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2019, 08:07:14 »

Note the talk of Llanwern, St Mellons, and through services to Ebbw Vale.   Just because there's a suggestion of a well sited station at Pilning Westgate doesn't mean its well sighted for every single journey - that's why we have over 2,500 stations each in a different place (OK, I grant you that 2 in St Budeaux are in the same place  Grin )

St Mellon's is probably the last place I'd add a local station between Newport and Cardiff (it looks about as promising as Baglan, and for much the same reasons). Splott, Rumney, Marshfield, and Tredegar Park would all be better locations for where people actually live – the estates in the east of Cardiff would be better served by Rumney as it would fit the bus network better. But I'm not sure that feeding anything more into the exercise in excessive compactness that is Cardiff Central is a good idea – if we're doing crayonism, let's have the Taff Vale line descend into a tunnel at Cathays, have its own underground Queen Street station out of the way of the Rhymney line, and then rise up again for Splott.
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« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2019, 08:13:48 »

Note the talk of Llanwern, St Mellons, and through services to Ebbw Vale.   Just because there's a suggestion of a well sited station at Pilning Westgate doesn't mean its well sighted for every single journey - that's why we have over 2,500 stations each in a different place (OK, I grant you that 2 in St Budeaux are in the same place  Grin )

St Mellon's is probably the last place I'd add a local station between Newport and Cardiff (it looks about as promising as Baglan, and for much the same reasons). Splott, Rumney, Marshfield, and Tredegar Park would all be better locations for where people actually live – the estates in the east of Cardiff would be better served by Rumney as it would fit the bus network better. But I'm not sure that feeding anything more into the exercise in excessive compactness that is Cardiff Central is a good idea – if we're doing crayonism, let's have the Taff Vale line descend into a tunnel at Cathays, have its own underground Queen Street station out of the way of the Rhymney line, and then rise up again for Splott.

But there are huge office developments in St Mellons. 
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« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2019, 08:29:12 »

Some thoughts.  No real conclusions - rather, inputs. Not even really sure if it should go in this thread, or in a "Transport Scholar" thread where we look at the whole theory. Delighted to see - just as I post this and preview - that others are posting too on the South Wales element.  Good - I don't want to frighten off contributions with what looks like a wordy epistle



With the removal of Severn Crossing tolls, you reduce the demarcation between the hinterland on the English side and the hinterland on the Welsh side.  Where before there was a financial barrier to living in one country and driving to a station in the other, there is now far less of that.

Many / most households are multi-person, and whilst a move across the Severn may suit one members's employment or advanced education which perhaps canals be moved, it may not be so easy for the other family member(s).  Similarly, you may have a car owning family, but that may not mean the car's available and afforded for one of them to drive it to work and have it laid up all day.

Looking back x years, where "x" is an increasingly large number, people lived and worked in the same town much more than they do today.  The work force does not walk or cycle through the gate in the almost-uniform way it did; for sure, some still might. But we live in an age of much more specialisation,  and much larger clumps of both housing and employment, and that puts routine travel distance up.

At the same time, looking back y years, where "y" is also an increasingly large number, in many jobs people can be flexible in where they work - "work from home" some, most or even all of the time.  And actually that's very much the more climate friendly / greener way of doing things, even if it also brings social problems of people becoming more isolated at times.

With the increasing specialisations - and a specialisation of leisure activities too, the need for regional travel (as opposed to inner suburban or very long distance) travel on a routine basis increases. I am minded of the Cardiff to Portsmouth train which passes through our area of interest in this thread ... how that's gone from "the line that they forgot" to strength, and then from strength to strength in my timearound. Look at the growth at stations as diverse as Oldfield Park and Bradford-on-Avon, and at the same time consider carefully just how few journeys are actually made end to end.    Passenger trains between Cardiff/Newport and Bristol have increased over the years, but just like the MetroWest leg from Bristol via Bath (and Bradford-on-Avon to Westbury) there might be sensible suggestion for a further service to be added, bringing the 'all stations' service up from hourly to half hourly.

Modern communications and regional planning strategies encourage change that's not piecemeal, and that fits the neighbourhood (talk to me about my local neighbourhood plan  Wink ) and the logic of development of a smaller scheme is to fit it in with the bigger plan.    Take a look at this:
Now ... if you were adding a significant NaPTAN (National Public Transport Access Node) in the middle of this map, where the public transport black and white railway with the node crosses the yellow line ... and you had lots of people going there, would it not be pretty logical to bring them in via the road towards the bottom left which - look - has already been built with the connectors needed ... this particular site is very lucky to have such a set of connectors ready and waiting, and a flat area between them and the access node itself which is separated from residence and of the size for suitable car parking. You also have sense in keeping the private cars away from the pinch point of the NaPTAN bridge, and you're working with the residents in nearby streets - have mutual benefits - in keeping traffic slow, low and safe.
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« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2019, 09:02:48 »

Not sure those in Pilning will like a massive parkway and traffic either though.

I set out in quite some detail in my earlier post the process we went through to understand and act upon the concerns of locals regarding any potential for extra traffic through Pilning, and the update grahame posted on Sunday (31 March 2019) sets out in equally great detail how we intend to prevent that from happening.
And equally the concern that Grahame hinted at re STJ (Severn Tunnel Junction railway station) could be addressed, and probably more easily.  There is brownfield land immediately to the south of the station for a car park, just a couple of hundred metres away some very recently disused slip roads to the M4, and they are connected by a road. So I don't think it would be any more difficult than what you are proposing, but would still probably take ages, such is the way of development these days. STJ could also be a parkway for the north, with direct trains as far as Nottingham.

But the tone of the response, slightly patronising I thought, makes me feel that you don't want any debate or challenge to your project. That's fair enough, if slightly disappointing.
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« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2019, 09:54:24 »

I'm sorry you feel that way. To take your last point, we've actually spent the last few months debating this with several relevant groups, organisations and individuals, and the whole point of the latest update was to take on board their concerns, act upon them, and modify our proposal accordingly to take that into account.

All I wanted to do in my post was to make you aware of our earlier posts that set out our efforts to address the concerns of local residents regarding their fears of extra traffic as a result of our proposal, and what we intend to do to prevent those fears being realised. It did appear to me that you might not have spotted those earlier posts - My apologies if this was not the case.

It was also not my aim to patronise ypu, and again I'm sorry if I inadvertently did. It has been pointed out to me in the past that my style of writing can come across that way, and it's not intentional.

Regarding STJ (Severn Tunnel Junction railway station), i would actually be delighted if it thrived into the future and became the best it could possibly be. I spent a lot of time with the Severn Tunnel Action Group in the mid-2000s - great people, who were always very supportive of our TransWilts campaigning, as we tried our best to be in return with theirs.

I look forward to debating the respective merits of both cases with you in the future, and again, sorry if I caused any offence.
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« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2019, 10:12:38 »

OK - came on to answer but I note Lee has said much of what I might.

Just a thought ... while Severn Tunnel Junction and Pilning Westgate have some overlap in their traffic / market reach - some element of abstraction, both have substantial traffic / prospects which could / would / should be met by one but not by the other. You are neither going to walk from Severn Tunnel Junction to Tesco or any of the other distribution sites, nor are you going to get a direct train from Pilning Westgate to Nottingham.

Railway projects from "A" to "B" where "A" is in one jurisdiction and "B" is in another get interesting as there's no one necessarily responsible / wanting to take ownership ... so many cases where "it would be so much easier if" ...

Heart of Wessex ... five authorities along the way and the CRP (Community Rail Partnership) has struggled for support and funding as it's tried to align them.

Swindon to Oxford ... crosses what's felt to be an "iron curtain" between the South East and the South West

West Wiltshire to CUBA (Counties that Used to Be Avon) (Counties that used to be Avon) ... transport flow maps/models that runs out around Batheaston
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