Bristol Undergound

[whole diary]

[Bmblbzzz]

I was thinking about Marvin's statement that the MetroMetro, which may or may not be in tunnels, could be guided by something as simple as a painted line. Surely this is a great opportunity to implement holistic unique multisensory autonomous nodal control systems?

[TonyK]

I was thinking about Marvin's statement that the MetroMetro, which may or may not be in tunnels, could be guided by something as simple as a painted line. Surely this is a great opportunity to implement holistic unique multisensory autonomous nodal control systems?

My Spanish isn't that good, but it would present a unique opportunity to anyone fed up with having it running past his house. No court action, lobbying, TV appearances needed - just sneak out at 2 am with a pot of white paint, and draw a diversion down a nearby side-street.

[Bmblbzzz]

No Spanish needed, just Holistic Unique Multisensory Autonomous Nodal control Systems. 

Or una olla de pintura (thanks, google!).

[TonyK]

No Spanish needed, just Holistic Unique Multisensory Autonomous Nodal control Systems. 

Or una olla de pintura (thanks, google!).

De nada! Hablo un poco de español, suficiente para comer y beber. But whatever the language, there won't be a Bristol Underground, unless it's a group of radical centrists determined to get rid of a couple of the mayors.

[Bmblbzzz]

I've just been reading about trams and Warsaw. What's that got to do with the "Bristol underground"? I'll try to explain the link my thoughts made. Warsaw has ordered 123 new trams, with an option for a further 90, to add its fleet of 530. Why is this possible there and not here? There are obvious physical differences: population, area, topography (Warsaw is flat), planning and development (most of Warsaw is 20th century or newer thanks to what in this context could be called the creative destruction of history), and the fact that trams were never scrapped. None of these are insuperable but they may not be as important as differences of attitude: being the national capital means not only a focus of investment and economic development but Warsovians think of their city differently than Bristolians do, and more importantly, the whole country has a different attitude to it.

But just to show that some problems are widespread, the head of Warsaw Trams said they'd rejected the previous idea of 45m trams, compared to the city's standard 33m, because "People didn't know how to use them. They all crowded into the first car, leaving the second half-full and the third totally unused."

[Red Squirrel]

FULLY UNDERGROUND RAIL SYSTEM UNLIKELY FOR BRISTOL

Transport chiefs have all but ruled out a London Tube-like underground system for Bristol.

The latest update on plans for a mass transit network for the city were revealed to councillors last week.

A committee heard that “all options” were still on the table as the West of England Combined Authority (WECA^» (West of England Combined Authority - about)) takes the plans forward to the next stage.

But Adam Crowther, Bristol City Council’s head of strategic city transport, said: “The one thing we probably won’t have is the tube.

“If you think of the London Underground, we’re not going to have eight-carriage long trains running around. That would be far too much capacity for this region.”

[...]

“The final proposal is likely to be a mixture of underground and overground options, maybe fully overground,” he said.

“It’s unlikely to be fully underground because we probably don’t need it to be fully underground, but there are some sections [where] we’re thinking it would be very challenging to do overground services.

“We’re essentially going to take all options forward.”

[...]

Crowther said the aim was to remain “technology agnostic” but that vehicle types being considered included tram-style buses with rubber wheels and track-based options such as trams, tram-trains and “Metro”.

Local funding mechanisms, such as a workplace parking levy or council tax precept, could make a “significant contribution” towards the project cost to match and supplement potential DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) investment, he said.

Full article: https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/fully-underground-rail-system-unlikely-for-bristol/

[CMRail]

FULLY UNDERGROUND RAIL SYSTEM UNLIKELY FOR BRISTOL

Transport chiefs have all but ruled out a London Tube-like underground system for Bristol.

The latest update on plans for a mass transit network for the city were revealed to councillors last week.

A committee heard that “all options” were still on the table as the West of England Combined Authority (WECA^» (West of England Combined Authority - about)) takes the plans forward to the next stage.

But Adam Crowther, Bristol City Council’s head of strategic city transport, said: “The one thing we probably won’t have is the tube.

“If you think of the London Underground, we’re not going to have eight-carriage long trains running around. That would be far too much capacity for this region.”

[...]

“The final proposal is likely to be a mixture of underground and overground options, maybe fully overground,” he said.

“It’s unlikely to be fully underground because we probably don’t need it to be fully underground, but there are some sections [where] we’re thinking it would be very challenging to do overground services.

“We’re essentially going to take all options forward.”

[...]

Crowther said the aim was to remain “technology agnostic” but that vehicle types being considered included tram-style buses with rubber wheels and track-based options such as trams, tram-trains and “Metro”.

Local funding mechanisms, such as a workplace parking levy or council tax precept, could make a “significant contribution” towards the project cost to match and supplement potential DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) investment, he said.

Full article: https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/fully-underground-rail-system-unlikely-for-bristol/

Surprise surprise!

[TonyK]

FULLY UNDERGROUND RAIL SYSTEM UNLIKELY FOR BRISTOL

Transport chiefs have all but ruled out a London Tube-like underground system for Bristol.

this one died an early death - I was expecting it to last until shortly after the next mayoral election.

Cutting out the unwanted words in the report, it looks as though WECA^» (West of England Combined Authority - about) will now spend £100 million looking at all options before deciding on more MetroBust and using whatever they can get out of government towards it to build a couple of new roads. Look at what is being said:

Committee members heard that there was the potential for mass transit routes to use the same vehicles as the Metrobus and park and ride routes...

which are known in other parts of the country as double-deck buses. Doesn't matter how they try to ponce it up, it's buses. If that's the starting point, then nothing will change. We also have a mass-transit route identified as:

...the A4 corridor to Bath

that being the one that runs parallel to the railway line, currently worked by the 39/X39 bus.

This has the air of misery about it, with councillors trying to put a positive spin on it by talking about rubber-wheeled vehicles, or the vehicles used by MetroBust instead of telling the people of Bristol the cold unpalatable truth - our fantastic new cutting edge scientific idea for getting Bristol onto public transport is - roll of drums please - more buses. At least we asked for trams once, before being downgraded to buses.

Clueless.

[Red Squirrel]

This has the air of misery about it, with councillors trying to put a positive spin on it by talking about rubber-wheeled vehicles, or the vehicles used by MetroBust instead of telling the people of Bristol the cold unpalatable truth - our fantastic new cutting edge scientific idea for getting Bristol onto public transport is - roll of drums please - more buses. At least we asked for trams once, before being downgraded to buses.

Without wishing to sound pollyannaish about this, is it possible that this is just a case of Amanda Cameron (whose story, interestingly, also appears word-for-word but with different illustrations in the Bristol Post) chosing a negative angle, and being subbed with a negative spin? OK, so Marvin Rees gives the impression of being at best lukewarm about rail-based solutions - but it's WECA^» (West of England Combined Authority - about)'s call, not his, if I understand it correctly. All Adam Crowther is saying is that we won't be getting 8-car trains on 90-second headways; did anyone think we were?

Of the four corridors under discussion, one - the north Bristol route - would pretty well have to go underground for some distance as there is nowhere to put it on the surface. The other three routes have surface routing options (some more obvious than others, and some more controversial than others).

Incidentally, Amanda Cameron had another piece published in both the Bristol Post and Bristol 24/7 today:

AMBITIOUS PLANS TO DOUBLE NUMBER OF BUS TRIPS IN BRISTOL BY 2036

Transport bosses have laid out their vision for a “radical” new bus network for Bristol.

An “ambitious” draft bus strategy, which aims to double the number of bus trips in the city by 2036, was revealed to a council committee last week.

Under the strategy, a redesigned bus network would see several main routes radiating out from the centre and a series of orbital routes linking them together.

The “interchange network” model would open up more destinations but would require some people to walk further to catch a bus and to catch more than one bus into the centre.

And, to run reliably, the bus network would also require cars to have less road space so that more can be allocated to buses.

[...]

“It is really, really ambitious and it will take some pretty radical interventions,” Adam Crowther, Bristol City Council’s head of strategic city transport, said.

Full article: https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/ambitious-plans-to-double-number-of-bus-trips-in-bristol-by-2036/

How this bus strategy fits in with the rapid transit strategy (and MetroWest) isn't quite clear to me, but one would have to hope that this is under consideration...

[martyjon]

FULLY UNDERGROUND RAIL SYSTEM UNLIKELY FOR BRISTOL

Transport chiefs have all but ruled out a London Tube-like underground system for Bristol.

The latest update on plans for a mass transit network for the city were revealed to councillors last week.

A committee heard that “all options” were still on the table as the West of England Combined Authority (WECA^» (West of England Combined Authority - about)) takes the plans forward to the next stage.

But Adam Crowther, Bristol City Council’s head of strategic city transport, said: “The one thing we probably won’t have is the tube.

“If you think of the London Underground, we’re not going to have eight-carriage long trains running around. That would be far too much capacity for this region.”

[...]

“The final proposal is likely to be a mixture of underground and overground options, maybe fully overground,” he said.

“It’s unlikely to be fully underground because we probably don’t need it to be fully underground, but there are some sections [where] we’re thinking it would be very challenging to do overground services.

“We’re essentially going to take all options forward.”

[...]

Crowther said the aim was to remain “technology agnostic” but that vehicle types being considered included tram-style buses with rubber wheels and track-based options such as trams, tram-trains and “Metro”.

Local funding mechanisms, such as a workplace parking levy or council tax precept, could make a “significant contribution” towards the project cost to match and supplement potential DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) investment, he said.

Full article: https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/fully-underground-rail-system-unlikely-for-bristol/

Surprise surprise!

Is this the beginning of Marvins marching orders at the next mayoral election and Tims at the next WECA election. The architect of 'the trams to the airport', EAR (of the North Somerset Parish) lost his seat at the last Local Council elections. So, is this the beginning of the end of the big talkers who promise so much so long into the future but cant sort out todays simple problems tomorrow.

[Bmblbzzz]

I thought "radial and orbital routes" was how the buses already ran. But certainly the programme to find out how far people are willing to walk to the bus could be something new. But who will they ask? Hopefully not only bus passengers.

[initiation]

But certainly the programme to find out how far people are willing to walk to the bus could be something new. But who will they ask? Hopefully not only bus passengers.

Judging from how far from temple meads the new bus stops are, they think we could all do with some more exercise.

[Bmblbzzz]

But certainly the programme to find out how far people are willing to walk to the bus could be something new. But who will they ask? Hopefully not only bus passengers.

Judging from how far from temple meads the new bus stops are, they think we could all do with some more exercise.

That would be my fear. Though in fact most of us could do with more exercise, but... The article talks about (in broad terms) increased frequency on fewer main routes or "radials". Which is great in some ways, such as speed and frequency of service, but not so good in terms of geographic coverage and reaching people who are less able to walk (such as elderly, disabled, parents with small kids) and I'd have guessed those are the people most reliant on the bus service. They might, however, not be a significant enough part of the current bus passenger population to have a voice equal to their numbers. But maybe they will, as elderly passengers seem to be quite numerous at least.

[Noggin]

Whilst buses and their related infrastructure are relatively cheap, the problem is that you can only fit so many down a corridor and even if they are electric, research suggests that rubber-tyred vehicles may be quite polluting in terms of particulates.

So once you get beyond a certain traffic level you really need to be going with either tram, DLR^▸ (Docklands Light Railway)-style light-rail (or a French-style rubber-tyred VAL), or a full metro along those axes.

Arguably trams would be the best option for Bristol, as there's unlikely to be enough usage to justify a full metro, you get the option of street running and not requiring segregated infrastructure, both in the city centre and suburban areas. OK, they are unlikely to be driverless, but that's not terrible if you look at the total cost of ownership. 

But the problem in Bristol is that there's relatively little, if any space for segregated street running on those axes - hence sending Metrobus up the M32. Even construction is likely to screw majorly with the city, so short of drastic demolition programmes or banning cars, the best solution if you want it to speed up times considerably, is to have part of the route tunnelled.

But that brings two problems. Firstly there are limited options for tunnel portals and other construction worksites without serious demolition. For example, if you want a tunnel to shadow the Gloucester Rd, the first real opportunity you have for a portal northbound is Horfield Common, southbound is probably the Bearpit. Secondly, tunneled stations are very expensive both to build and run, and there's the question of where you can fit the surface buildings, ventilation shafts etc.

And all this in a city where the good folks of the inner-city riot when a Tesco is opened...

As for the airport, realistically you need both a heavy rail station (including a south-facing connection for the South West), a light-rail solution and a dual-carriageway connection  to the A370 junction at Flax Bourton. Yes, I'm quite aware that's a lot of money and will spoil a lot of people's views but if you want to have an airport and grow the economy in a sustainable way then it is just something that needs to be done.

[Bmblbzzz]

By "full metro" I presume you mean "underground railway"? There are quite a few other things it could refer to.

Another disadvantage of tunnel running is that it's simply not that pleasant for passengers. There's also evidence from London Underground that the air in the tunnels is more polluted than at street level.