Bristol Undergound

[whole diary]

[Red Squirrel]

...there are limited options for tunnel portals and other construction worksites without serious demolition. For example, if you want a tunnel to shadow the Gloucester Rd, the first real opportunity you have for a portal northbound is Horfield Common, southbound is probably the Bearpit. Secondly, tunneled stations are very expensive both to build and run, and there's the question of where you can fit the surface buildings, ventilation shafts etc.

The Bearpit was built as a precursor to a grade-separated junction between urban motorways, so there is as you say plenty of room there for a tunnel portal. However there is probably room for street running on the section of the A38 between Stokes Croft and The Arches; it's north of there that the troubles start...

With a bit of clever engineering, it may be possible to do something using the embankment between Montpelier and Redland stations for a portal location; odder things have been done in London.
The northern route is shown as running rather to the west of the A38, which perhaps opens up more possibilities in terms of finding space for surface running. A couple of routes through Southmead suggest themselves, with the potential to hook into Brabazon/Cribbs...

And all this in a city where the good folks of the inner-city riot when a Tesco is opened...

Um... I don't think you can really draw any inference from that.

[Robin Summerhill]

I haven't given the matter any detailed thought, but some rapid transit systems around the world are elevated, such as in New York. Would that be an option in Bristol? I doubt it would be more expensive than tunnelling.

[johnneyw]

The northern route is shown as running rather to the west of the A38, which perhaps opens up more possibilities in terms of finding space for surface running. A couple of routes through Southmead suggest themselves, with the potential to hook into Brabazon/Cribbs...

The B4054 Cranbrook Road? Less than half a minute walk from me, might actually be handy.

[Bmblbzzz]

I haven't given the matter any detailed thought, but some rapid transit systems around the world are elevated, such as in New York. Would that be an option in Bristol? I doubt it would be more expensive than tunnelling.

I remember hearing a rough estimate that building an elevated road, railway or similar structure costs around twice as much as building it on the surface. But building it in a tunnel costs four times as much. I'm not sure I've remembered the ratios correctly, and in any case it's bound to vary with geology, topography and so on, but underground is definitely more expensive than elevated.

[Robin Summerhill]

I haven't given the matter any detailed thought, but some rapid transit systems around the world are elevated, such as in New York. Would that be an option in Bristol? I doubt it would be more expensive than tunnelling.

I remember hearing a rough estimate that building an elevated road, railway or similar structure costs around twice as much as building it on the surface. But building it in a tunnel costs four times as much. I'm not sure I've remembered the ratios correctly, and in any case it's bound to vary with geology, topography and so on, but underground is definitely more expensive than elevated.

There is also the matter that might have been covered earlier in this thread - I'll admit to not reading it all  - is that coal has been mined in the general Bristol area for at least a thousand years. There will be tunnels down there that have never been mapped, and drainage rills with them. All you need to do is hit a big one that you're not expecting and you've got "The Great Spring" all over again.

[TonyK]

Incidentally, Amanda Cameron had another piece published in both the Bristol Post and Bristol 24/7 today:

AMBITIOUS PLANS TO DOUBLE NUMBER OF BUS TRIPS IN BRISTOL BY 2036

Transport bosses have laid out their vision for a “radical” new bus network for Bristol.

An “ambitious” draft bus strategy, which aims to double the number of bus trips in the city by 2036, was revealed to a council committee last week.

Under the strategy, a redesigned bus network would see several main routes radiating out from the centre and a series of orbital routes linking them together.

The “interchange network” model would open up more destinations but would require some people to walk further to catch a bus and to catch more than one bus into the centre.

And, to run reliably, the bus network would also require cars to have less road space so that more can be allocated to buses.

[...]

“It is really, really ambitious and it will take some pretty radical interventions,” Adam Crowther, Bristol City Council’s head of strategic city transport, said.

Full article: https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/ambitious-plans-to-double-number-of-bus-trips-in-bristol-by-2036/

How this bus strategy fits in with the rapid transit strategy (and MetroWest) isn't quite clear to me, but one would have to hope that this is under consideration...

I read that piece too. It seems that the idea is to replace, for example, the X39, 349, and 1 with buses running along big roads like Bath Road, and connected to places like St Annes by buses like the current number 36. Services such as the 75 and 76, running from Hengrove and Hartcliffe via the A38 to town, would also be replaced by buses. To make room for these new bus routes, we would need to ban all cars, and hope they don't find alternative routes.

This passes for radical in Bristol.

The northern route is shown as running rather to the west of the A38, which perhaps opens up more possibilities in terms of finding space for surface running. A couple of routes through Southmead suggest themselves, with the potential to hook into Brabazon/Cribbs...

The B4054 Cranbrook Road? Less than half a minute walk from me, might actually be handy.

My thinking a long time ago! If it could manage Linden Road, it's a nice gentle downhill slope to Southmead, then onwards to Filton and the dear old airfield. North Road would suffice, too, which would fit RS's idea of a turnout from the line between Montpelier and Redland.

[martyjon]

AMBITIOUS PLANS TO DOUBLE NUMBER OF BUS TRIPS IN BRISTOL BY 2036

Oh yea. It'll be like MetroBus, years late, massively over budget and heavily trimmed back on the original plans.

I see they've sort of admitted defeat with MetroBus ;-

From SGC website ;-

Summary of forthcoming bus service changes in South Gloucestershire
....
Service Changes 1 September 2019
....
Service m1 – Bristol Community Transport (Cribbs Causeway – Bristol Centre – Hengrove) Frequency amended to reflect demand from 10 to 12 minutes Monday to Saturday off peak and from 10 to 20 minutes Saturday mornings and evenings. Sundays and Public Holidays frequency’s remain unchanged. No change to route.

....

[martyjon]

AMBITIOUS PLANS TO DOUBLE NUMBER OF BUS TRIPS IN BRISTOL BY 2036

Oh yea. It'll be like MetroBus, years late, massively over budget and heavily trimmed back on the original plans.

I see they've sort of admitted defeat with MetroBus ;-

From SGC website ;-

Summary of forthcoming bus service changes in South Gloucestershire
....
Service Changes 1 September 2019
....
Service m1 – Bristol Community Transport (Cribbs Causeway – Bristol Centre – Hengrove) Frequency amended to reflect demand from 10 to 12 minutes Monday to Saturday off peak and from 10 to 20 minutes Saturday mornings and evenings. Sundays and Public Holidays frequency’s remain unchanged. No change to route.
....

AND by 2036 it will be cheaper to pay the weekly lease charge on a brand new electric car than it will be to pay for a Bristol Zone Dayrider Ticket.

[Bmblbzzz]

Incidentally, Amanda Cameron had another piece published in both the Bristol Post and Bristol 24/7 today:

AMBITIOUS PLANS TO DOUBLE NUMBER OF BUS TRIPS IN BRISTOL BY 2036

Transport bosses have laid out their vision for a “radical” new bus network for Bristol.

An “ambitious” draft bus strategy, which aims to double the number of bus trips in the city by 2036, was revealed to a council committee last week.

Under the strategy, a redesigned bus network would see several main routes radiating out from the centre and a series of orbital routes linking them together.

The “interchange network” model would open up more destinations but would require some people to walk further to catch a bus and to catch more than one bus into the centre.

And, to run reliably, the bus network would also require cars to have less road space so that more can be allocated to buses.

[...]

“It is really, really ambitious and it will take some pretty radical interventions,” Adam Crowther, Bristol City Council’s head of strategic city transport, said.

Full article: https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/ambitious-plans-to-double-number-of-bus-trips-in-bristol-by-2036/

How this bus strategy fits in with the rapid transit strategy (and MetroWest) isn't quite clear to me, but one would have to hope that this is under consideration...

I read that piece too. It seems that the idea is to replace, for example, the X39, 349, and 1 with buses running along big roads like Bath Road, and connected to places like St Annes by buses like the current number 36. Services such as the 75 and 76, running from Hengrove and Hartcliffe via the A38 to town, would also be replaced by buses. To make room for these new bus routes, we would need to ban all cars, and hope they don't find alternative routes.

This passes for radical in Bristol.

Too many changes. I mean too much need to change buses on any one journey, not too many changes in what's going on. A direct journey on a slow bus almost always beats two fast buses: it's simpler, you don't worry about missing your connection or having to wait a long time in the rain, or whether you'll get a seat on the second bus, or indeed which bus it will be. And especially difficult for eg wheelchair users, parents with prams, people with loads of shopping, etc.

[TonyK]

AMBITIOUS PLANS TO DOUBLE NUMBER OF BUS TRIPS IN BRISTOL BY 2036

Oh yea. It'll be like MetroBus, years late, massively over budget and heavily trimmed back on the original plans.

I see they've sort of admitted defeat with MetroBus ;-

From SGC website ;-

Summary of forthcoming bus service changes in South Gloucestershire
....
Service Changes 1 September 2019
....
Service m1 – Bristol Community Transport (Cribbs Causeway – Bristol Centre – Hengrove) Frequency amended to reflect demand from 10 to 12 minutes Monday to Saturday off peak and from 10 to 20 minutes Saturday mornings and evenings. Sundays and Public Holidays frequency’s remain unchanged. No change to route.

....

So the expansion is actually a 17% cut in weekday off-peak services, and a 50% cut at weekend. Plus the M3?M3X has news:

Service m3 & m3x – First Bus (Emersons Green – UWE (m3 only) – Bristol Centre) timetable amended but frequencies remain the same across all days of operation. No change to route.

Service m3x during busy times on M32 might operate via Bus Gate, Stoke Lane, Coldharbour Lane and A4174 but will not observe additional stops on diversion.

My emphasis.

[Red Squirrel]

Boost for Bristol underground as WECA^» (West of England Combined Authority - about) agrees 'tunnels may well be needed'
Source: Bristol Live

I would have quoted more of this article, but I think the headline really says it all. The spirit of Sherlock Holmes live on.

[Bmblbzzz]

I disagree. More investigation is needed. I mean, the Blue Mountain isn't even open anymore.
https://www.culturecalling.com/uk/features/top-5-underground-clubs-in-bristol

[broadgage]

I haven't given the matter any detailed thought, but some rapid transit systems around the world are elevated, such as in New York. Would that be an option in Bristol? I doubt it would be more expensive than tunnelling.

I very much doubt that an elevated system would be allowed in an existing urban area, consider the scale of the NIMBYfests.
The New York system has been largely dismantled, regrettably in my view. It was steam powered in the early days, but soon electrified.

[infoman]

In my opinion,if the underground ever gets built should follow a path

City centre Clifton Westbury Southmead hospital cut across to Filton roundabout

and back down the A38 in a circular route to the City centre.

So passengers could get on in either direction and get to their destination.

Its no good going from the City centre to a termination point.

I think most of us have come back on the last bristol bound train from London.

Its packed at Paddington,and very few are still on the train on arrival at BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI))

[Bmblbzzz]

Hopefully there would be some services in east and south Bristol too.