Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 16:35 28 Mar 2024
* Passengers pleaded with knifeman during attack
- How do I renew my UK passport and what is the 10-year rule?
- Jet2 launches first flight from Liverpool airport
- Easter travel warning as millions set to hit roads
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
28th Mar (1988)
Formal end to carrying coffins by BR (link)

Train RunningCancelled
15:16 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
15:30 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington
16:51 Filton Abbey Wood to Bristol Temple Meads
16:54 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
17:04 Bristol Temple Meads to Filton Abbey Wood
17:51 Filton Abbey Wood to Bristol Temple Meads
17:54 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
17:57 London Paddington to Worcester Foregate Street
19:33 London Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill
20:56 Worcester Foregate Street to London Paddington
Short Run
12:03 London Paddington to Penzance
13:10 Gloucester to Weymouth
13:28 Weymouth to Gloucester
15:10 Gloucester to Weymouth
15:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
15:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
16:19 Carmarthen to London Paddington
16:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
Delayed
13:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
13:55 Paignton to London Paddington
13:59 Cardiff Central to Penzance
14:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
14:36 London Paddington to Paignton
17:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 28, 2024, 16:35:32 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[142] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[80] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[56] Return of the BRUTE?
[46] If not HS2 to Manchester, how will traffic be carried?
[43] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[34] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
 
News: the Great Western Coffee Shop ... keeping you up to date with travel around the South West
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Why are UK rail fares so expensive?  (Read 6748 times)
Cava
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 24



View Profile WWW Email
« on: June 07, 2018, 09:53:01 »

A couple of friends of mine recently tried to book rail tickets between Plymouth and Birmingham, but were put off by the price and opted for the coach instead, which was much cheaper. They say this has happened several times before, and they would really like to travel by train, but it is just too expensive for them.

So why are UK (United Kingdom) train fares so expensive?
Logged

broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2018, 11:37:56 »

There are numerous contributory factors, that in my view include the following.

A fragmented structure whereby the trains are owned by one company, but leased to the company that operate them, whilst the track is owned and controlled by a third party.
All three are subject to varying degrees of government control.

Ever growing safety standards. Whilst we all expect a safe railway, I wonder if it is being overdone ? Examples include hugely expensive footbridges at small and lightly used stations. In most other countries passengers would simply cross the track.
And why do electrified lines now need larger clearances than those that have worked for decades ?

Ever growing provision for disabled customers. Often resulting in hugely costly modifications to existing trains when other countries might only follow the new standards for new trains.

Onerous fencing requirements. In the UK (United Kingdom) almost all railway lines must be fenced at the railways expense. In other countries the adjacent landowner erects the fence IF NEEDED AT ALL.

A blame culture that requires or expects someone to go to jail when anything goas wrong. This results in a general reluctance to make decisions. As an example, consider a teenage trespasser who is killed by climbing and touching the overhead wires. In some countries this would be regarded as their own fault.
In the UK, questions would be asked
"who designed the structure ? can we blame them"
"who signed off that this was safe, can we blame them ?"
"who last inspected the fencing, can we blame them"

And of course demands for "justice for [name of dead trespasser]"

Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10095


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2018, 12:22:38 »

In my view Cross Country, who would operate the route you describe, are one of the worst at offering reduced price tickets - you really have to be quick to snap up anything at what I would consider 'good' value at under £50.  Compare that with a journey on GWR (Great Western Railway) from Plymouth to London, which is the same distance away, and being the capital you might expect to pay more, but that's not usually the case as tickets are generally cheaper and generally much more widely available.

Cross Country has a very tight fleet operation - I would imagine their average daily seat occupancy percentage is amongst the highest in the country.  So they can fill many of their trains without having to offer many bargains, indeed many run around with standing room only at all times of the day.  Hopefully much more capacity will introduced as part of the next franchise award so that there is more scope to offer more reduced rate fares, but it is certainly not something the operator would do of its own volition.
Logged

To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
Sixty3Closure
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 501


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2018, 15:32:24 »

There's also cultural differences where a lot of European goverments see the benefit to society and the environment and subsidise the railways. Here in the UK (United Kingdom) (with some regional differences) there's more emphasis on their paying their way so ticket prices reflect the actual cost. Despite this dogma railtrack does get a fairly hefty handout so there are other factors as play. As broadgage says I don't think the current structure helps.
Logged
4064ReadingAbbey
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 455


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2018, 19:16:25 »

A lot depends on the fares being compared.

The website The Man in Seat 61 <https://www.seat61.com/index.html>  has a lot of information about train travel and fares in both the UK (United Kingdom) and Abroad©. Although this article he wrote is a year or two old the general conclusions remain valid, I can recommend it <https://www.seat61.com/uk-europe-train-fares-comparison.html>
Logged
Richard Fairhurst
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1204


View Profile Email
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2018, 20:54:55 »

Cross Country has a very tight fleet operation - I would imagine their average daily seat occupancy percentage is amongst the highest in the country.  So they can fill many of their trains without having to offer many bargains, indeed many run around with standing room only at all times of the day.  Hopefully much more capacity will introduced as part of the next franchise award so that there is more scope to offer more reduced rate fares, but it is certainly not something the operator would do of its own volition.

That's particularly true because "the operator" is Arriva, of course. Both ATW (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC (Train Operating Company))) and XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) were let as minimal-growth franchises and Arriva has been content to milk that - and done very nicely financially out of it. XC's HSTs (High Speed Train), for example, have been greatly under-utilised over the length of the franchise, sitting idle for much of the week.

Contrast with FGW (First Great Western) (as was), who, for their many faults, actually went the extra mile to get additional rolling stock over and above the initial franchise award - such as the 150/0s and the return of the 180s.
Logged
Gregg
Newbie
*
Posts: 1


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2018, 13:22:50 »

Could it be because train drivers wages are ridiculously high. Advertised in Cornwall last year for a GWR (Great Western Railway) driver based Penzance, which means basically driving SEMI-AUTOMATIC trains Penzance to Newton Abbot/Exeter [Like a really tough job!] - £47,000 per year start. That is absurd. It is more than many airline pilots earn on budget airlines after 5 years. Such a wage maybe warranted on stressful commuter lines & inter-city express routes although if you watch YouTube videos recorded by drivers in the driver's cab they don't seem too stressed to me. Also it staggers me that after 20 years of the internet there are still people who have never heard of booking in advance online to get cheaper tickets. Just beggars belief.
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2018, 13:45:10 »

Whilst train drivers wages certainly sound generous if compared to other skilled and responsible jobs, it must be said that several train companies are also struggling with driver shortages.

Some of this is IMHO (in my humble opinion), simple incompetence on the part of the companies, failure to advertise, recruit, and train drivers in good time.
However that is not the whole story, since a lot of drivers tend to leave rather than to stay until retirement. That suggests that the job is less attractive than it sounds, despite the generous salary.

Parts of the London Underground are semi automatic, as is the Docklands light railway, but I am not aware of any "semi automatic" trains on the Penzance line or indeed on any mainline.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
chuffed
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1499


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2018, 17:49:55 »

Just on a point of comparison. Had this in an email from a friend today ...

Enjoyed Spanish Railways immensely, especially the High Speed train from Madrid to Alicante (1st Class, including Hot Breakfast and drinks was only
89 Euros for the 2 of us with luggage. Two hours 16 minutes and arrived  on the dot).
Logged
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7743



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2018, 09:06:25 »

Whilst train drivers wages certainly sound generous if compared to other skilled and responsible jobs, it must be said that several train companies are also struggling with driver shortages.

Some of this is IMHO (in my humble opinion), simple incompetence on the part of the companies, failure to advertise, recruit, and train drivers in good time.
However that is not the whole story, since a lot of drivers tend to leave rather than to stay until retirement. That suggests that the job is less attractive than it sounds, despite the generous salary.

Parts of the London Underground are semi automatic, as is the Docklands light railway, but I am not aware of any "semi automatic" trains on the Penzance line or indeed on any mainline.

Looking at other comparable jobs (ie coach drivers, HGV drivers, who arguably face much more stress on the motorways), train drivers are exceptionally well rewarded, not just in terms of salary but benefits, holidays, working hours etc as well - I'd suggest that this is a legacy of powerful and militant trade unions who possess a great deal of leverage, not least the ability to bring London and South East England to a grinding halt - this also applies to LU drivers.

This is likely to evaporate within the next 20-30 years however as driverless technology moves in so perhaps it's a case of making hay whilst the sun shines.

It'd be interesting to see the demographic and destinations of those who are leaving the industry early, is it mostly older guys who've had enough and are able to retire early, younger guys who feel they've made the wrong decision, and for those in the middle, what sort of jobs do they move on to?




Logged
4064ReadingAbbey
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 455


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2018, 11:14:48 »

This debate on drivers' pay waxes and wanes but is it based on a misunderstanding that there exists a 'correct' rate of pay for any given job as if there were a hierarchy of jobs or occupations or vocations the pay for which depends on the position of any particular job in the hierarchy.

A moment's thought will demonstrate that such a hierarchy cannot exist for all sorts of reasons unless pay scales are fixed by a national central authority.

Pay rates and employment conditions are the result of supply and demand - within the frameworks set by common and statute law. In BR (British Rail(ways))'s days staff were poorly paid - so much so that in the 1950s and early 60s Government investigations showed that the pay of some was under the the (then) poverty level. In one year there were two significant pay increases ordered by Government. One of the main reasons for the low pay was that BR was the only employer (a monopsony) of railway staff so faced no competition.

One of the enormous benefits of privatisation from the point of view of railway staff was that an employment market was opened up and staff could take their skills elsewhere if they wished. The result was that pay rates became comparable with other industries.

One of the results of there being a single employer - essentially the Government in a nationalised business - is that the staff need an effective counterweight. This is supplied by strong and effective trades unions - which, by the way, is why only national and local governmental businesses have effective staff unions, in the private sector unions have almost ceased to exist.

Given the existence of the trades unions as the TOCs (Train Operating Company) were set up as franchises it took little time for the unions to work out a modus operandi - being the good free marketeers that they are - to get the best deal for their members. This modus operandi was based on three premises (a) the limited life of a franchise meaning it had no long term interests, (b) the financial pressures the franchises were under to either reduce their subsidy or increase the premiums paid making them amenable to pressure and (c) the situation that any pay increase granted by one franchisee would be rolled forward to be included in the base case in the bids for the successor franchise. It was a one-way ratchet.

So, train drivers are not overpaid - they are paid what the market will bear - and the trades unions are only doing what they are there for.

And I am not sure that many people who rail against drivers' pay would really like the conditions. Shifts that can start in the middle of the night; many hours of solitude at the same time requiring concentration; shaking, moving sometimes vibrating and noisy surroundings; tasks which are often very repetitive; a good memory and sense of spatial awareness; knowledge of and understanding reams of procedures and ability to fault find while under time pressure. Finding people who are a good match to these requirements is, I suggest, not easy.

And to give a sense of scale, according to the ORR» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about)'s figures for 2016-17 total expenditure by the franchised train operators in GB (Great Britain) (i.e., excluding Northern Ireland) was £12.6bn of which staffing, including train drivers, made up 23% for a total of £2.9bn. So drivers' pay - while significant - is by no means the largest contributor to the TOCs' costs.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 11:25:06 by 4064ReadingAbbey » Logged
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4355


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2018, 11:46:08 »

The reason rail fares are so high compared with other countries in Europe is purely down to Government policy.

HMG since Beeching (and before) has been the railways in the UK (United Kingdom) must pay their way as such HMG has set about making the users (passengers) pay a larger and large proportion of the operating costs.

This forum moans when trains are cancelled due to a shortage of drivers I guess we could squeeze down on pay for drivers, signallers, engineering staff and all of the other staff that make the UK railways the safest in Europe and make no mistake the UK railways are the most intensely used in Europe, and we copuld religate our railways to being less safe, permanatly reduce the number of services to perhaps to core commuter routes into the major cities
Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7743



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2018, 14:46:28 »


One of the enormous benefits of privatisation from the point of view of railway staff was that an employment market was opened up and staff could take their skills elsewhere if they wished. The result was that pay rates became comparable with other industries.


Which other industries?
Logged
4064ReadingAbbey
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 455


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2018, 11:21:37 »


One of the enormous benefits of privatisation from the point of view of railway staff was that an employment market was opened up and staff could take their skills elsewhere if they wished. The result was that pay rates became comparable with other industries.


Which other industries?
A basket of 'other industries'. Not all positions in the TOCs (Train Operating Company), in particular, or 'the railway', in general, are directly concerned with running trains.
Logged
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7743



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2018, 12:51:00 »


One of the enormous benefits of privatisation from the point of view of railway staff was that an employment market was opened up and staff could take their skills elsewhere if they wished. The result was that pay rates became comparable with other industries.


Which other industries?
A basket of 'other industries'. Not all positions in the TOCs (Train Operating Company), in particular, or 'the railway', in general, are directly concerned with running trains.

Ah OK. The detail would be interesting, if only to establish which other driving jobs pay an annual salary in the region of £50,000 🙂
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page