Train Graphic
Great Western Passengers' Forum Great Western Coffee Shop - [home] and [about]
Read about the forum [here].
Register and contribute [here] - it's free.
 tomorrow - WWRUG - Westbury
16/11/2018 - TWSW AGM
17/11/2018 - GWRA Auction, Pershore
21/11/2018 - First Bath Bus panel
21/11/2018 - Consultation end - Angel Road
26/11/2018 - TransWilts Board and Members
Random Image
Train Running @GWR Twitter Acronyms/Abbreviations Station Comparator Rail News GWR co. site Site Style 1 2 3 4 Chat on off
November 14, 2018, 05:20:48 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most liked recent subjects
[195] How much will it cost? Expanding the network.
[90] Isn't that awful........
[89] 43185 in 1988 Swallow livery
[61] MetroBus
[32] Swindon to Kemble re-doubling - ongoing discussion and updates
[18] HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general dis...
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Costs of congestion  (Read 3676 times)
froome
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 323


View Profile Email
« on: June 11, 2018, 10:21:01 pm »

A lot is talked about the costs to the economy associated with congestion on the roads. On the rail system, if everything was running as per timetables, there would be no problems with congestion. But, of course, that does not always happen. I was reminded of that today when I was on the train from Temple Meads to Bath that broke down at Keynsham, blocking the main London line. I was on the train there for 20 minutes until the TM opened the doors and said the train would have to wait for a fitter, at which point I took my Brompton and cycled to Bath, getting home quicker, I understand, than those who stayed on the train. A lot of trains were blocked by that incident, with cancellations and much delay.

Which made me wonder whether anyone has ever tried to estimate what the costs to the economy are of congestion on the rails, whether caused by train breakdowns or just overcrowding of the system. Obviously it wouldn't be on the scale of that on the roads, but judging from the number of trains I've been on that have broken down, I suspect it may be significant.
Logged
eightf48544
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4143


View Profile Email
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2018, 04:04:57 pm »

Interesting thoughts. Quite hard to measure but for instance would you charge a different rate for delays going to work or coming home. As aside why is one always delayed when you want to get home early?

Would you factor in those people who allegedly lost their jobs because of the Southern fiasco?

What about leisure travel would you have a different rate to business travel?.

Then there's the internal cost of delay attribution which is alleged-to require a large number of people to manage this might add more.

Although the delay minutes are known for every train you would have to guestimate the number of people on each delayed train to get the total cast.

But I'm sur it could be done.
 
Logged
Sixty3Closure
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 208


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2018, 10:24:42 am »

I'd also add the emotional impact of delays. I see it on a regular basis in my office when people turn up late after delays. Many are angry and frustrated others are upset. It's not only the missed meetings or shift start but I've found a bad journey stays with me for some of the day and probably makes me less productive or certainly less diplomatic.
Logged
CyclingSid
Transport Scholar
Sr. Member
******
Posts: 224


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2018, 12:32:04 pm »

Presumably, for those with the time and inclination, some of the answers could be calculated from WebTAG.
Table 4 of the Rail Appraisal section https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/715482/tag-unit-a5-3-rail-appraisal-may-2018.pdf gives some pointers. But previous text suggests that you might need access to Passenger Demand Forecasting Handbook (PDFH), which is possibly not publicly available.
Glad I never have to dig this deep into it.
Logged
froome
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 323


View Profile Email
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2018, 05:57:13 pm »

I'd also add the emotional impact of delays. I see it on a regular basis in my office when people turn up late after delays. Many are angry and frustrated others are upset. It's not only the missed meetings or shift start but I've found a bad journey stays with me for some of the day and probably makes me less productive or certainly less diplomatic.

Yes definitely. There was a piece on the radio a few minutes ago about a woman who had a breakdown after it was announced on the train she was sat on that it wouldn't be stopping at her station because of delays, and she had to sit on it watching her station pass by. It was the last straw, and she went to her doctor with stress and was laid up.
Logged
martyjon
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1222


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2018, 05:59:37 pm »

I'd also add the emotional impact of delays. I see it on a regular basis in my office when people turn up late after delays. Many are angry and frustrated others are upset. It's not only the missed meetings or shift start but I've found a bad journey stays with me for some of the day and probably makes me less productive or certainly less diplomatic.

Yes definitely. There was a piece on the radio a few minutes ago about a woman who had a breakdown after it was announced on the train she was sat on that it wouldn't be stopping at her station because of delays, and she had to sit on it watching her station pass by. It was the last straw, and she went to her doctor with stress and was laid up.

Yea I heard that, the missed station was Redhill.
Logged
froome
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 323


View Profile Email
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2018, 06:00:55 pm »

Interesting thoughts. Quite hard to measure but for instance would you charge a different rate for delays going to work or coming home. As aside why is one always delayed when you want to get home early?

Would you factor in those people who allegedly lost their jobs because of the Southern fiasco?

What about leisure travel would you have a different rate to business travel?.

Then there's the internal cost of delay attribution which is alleged-to require a large number of people to manage this might add more.

Although the delay minutes are known for every train you would have to guestimate the number of people on each delayed train to get the total cast.

But I'm sur it could be done.
 


I think it could actually be much simpler than that, as all that is needed is a very rough figure. It should be much simpler than the congestion on the roads, as you know roughly who is using the trains from the tickets bought, especially those on season tickets, whereas it is impossible to know who is using the roads at any one time and how they are faring. It always intrigues me how a figure for the costs of congestion on the roads is arrived at.
Logged
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1607


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2018, 08:54:04 pm »

Interesting thoughts. Quite hard to measure but for instance would you charge a different rate for delays going to work or coming home. As aside why is one always delayed when you want to get home early?

Would you factor in those people who allegedly lost their jobs because of the Southern fiasco?

What about leisure travel would you have a different rate to business travel?.

Then there's the internal cost of delay attribution which is alleged-to require a large number of people to manage this might add more.

Although the delay minutes are known for every train you would have to guestimate the number of people on each delayed train to get the total cast.

But I'm sur it could be done.
 

Sounds complicated. But if we're talking about costs to the economy then what counts is the work not done, goods not delivered in time, etc, and as calculations are already made for these in road transport, the rates are established. The value of work not done is the same whether the delayed employee is stuck on in a car or in a train.
Logged

Day return to Infinity, please.
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants