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Question: What should be running From Ryde to Shanklin in 5 years time?  (Voting closed: June 26, 2018, 04:57:05 pm)
Current trains - 2 (7.7%)
Newer cascaded tubes - 11 (42.3%)
Next generation tube trains - 5 (19.2%)
Trams / light rail with streeet running - 7 (26.9%)
Buses - 0 (0%)
Something else - 1 (3.8%)
Total Voters: 26

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Author Topic: Isle of Wight futures.  (Read 3310 times)
grahame
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« on: June 19, 2018, 04:57:06 pm »

It just struck me that with all the talk of more hand-me-downs for the Isle of Wight, why not bite the bullet and add a run-on of a few more trains to the next newbuild tubes?    Statement suggests that costs are reduced by doing a big standard run

http://www.mayorwatch.co.uk/tfl-hires-siemens-to-build-94-next-generation-tube-trains-for-the-piccadilly-line/

This is totally unscientific to provoke discussion.   I have not added an O2 option though.
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bignosemac
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2018, 05:48:36 pm »

Can the new trains be adapted to shorter lengths though.

Modern tube stock design is geared to fixed formation fully open walk through. The traction package is designed for the required length too.

I don't think it would be as simple as just paring down a full length train to 2/3 carriages length required by Island Line.
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eightf48544
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2018, 09:01:07 am »

Class 230s?  Possibly battery.

I believe one of the problems with using full sized trains is the restricted tunnel in Ryde. Would require gauge enhancement.
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ray951
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2018, 09:54:31 am »

This London Reconnections article is worth reading about the future of the Wight line.
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/third-ryde-tube-transfer-troublesome/
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2018, 10:30:51 am »

The trouble is there are numerous problems to overcome (both financial and technical) with all the potential solutions.  The quality of ride is shocking, especially at the southern end, so I feel the best way forward would be to do a proper job rather than a sticking plaster one with old D Stock or Piccadilly Line trains.  That would suggest re-laying most of the track, removing most if not all of the signalling, minor changes to the track layout so that a 20-minute interval service can operate, overhead electrification from Ryde St. Johns southwards and custom built trams that would operate on battery power between Ryde Pier Head and Ryde St. John's. 

Several new tram stops could be added at convenient locations in Ryde, and between Sandown and Shankling.  Indeed at Ryde you could consider an entirely new street section from Esplanade that removes the problem of Ryde Tunnel whilst taking trams through the centre of Ryde rather than the largely industrial area it currently passes through.

Who would pay for major works like that though?  It's unlikely that it would ever pay for itself, though there's no doubt in my mind that there is potential for significant growth to potentially reduce the losses.  Also, keeping the old trains going long enough to get those major works financed and built would be asking a lot.

I also like the idea of the steam railway somehow being able to share tracks through to Ryde.  Perhaps it could be the first tram/steam railway in the world?  Wink
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2018, 10:55:09 am »

...The quality of ride is shocking

I stayed in Sandown last weekend and had the misfortune of catching the "train" to Ryde.
I forgot how bumpy and rocky the service was, at one point a young lad was even thrown from his (sideways) seat with the motion of one bump

Even a horse drawn carraige would be an improvement to what they currently have !
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Fourbee
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2018, 11:10:15 am »

The fares on the buses seemed expensive to me (Shanklin - Ventnor was 6 return when I was on the island in 2016, which was 2 x 3 singles as they don't do returns). Currently you can travel Ryde Pier Head - Shanklin day return for 6.10.

Maybe if all those ENCTS holders had to pay Island Line would have a few more quid in it's pocket...
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eightf48544
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2018, 11:55:25 am »

I also like the idea of the steam railway somehow being able to share tracks through to Ryde.  Perhaps it could be the first tram/steam railway in the world?  Wink

I'm afraid the Germans have got there first. Nordhausen to to Ifeld 1897 Mallet tanks and 2005? ED trams which run onto the streets of Nordhausen.

Also Karlesruhr extensive tram train system I've run behind steam up one of the tram lines.
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grahame
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« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2018, 06:23:53 am »

Can the new trains be adapted to shorter lengths though.

Modern tube stock design is geared to fixed formation fully open walk through. The traction package is designed for the required length too.

I don't think it would be as simple as just paring down a full length train to 2/3 carriages length required by Island Line.

I'll give you a definite "don't know" on that.   The latest trains for the underground (S7 and S8) are subsurface rather than tube and probably would not fit (nor would D trains). But i do note 6 slightly different formations, powered axles in all carriages, and pickup shoes on end and 2 centre cars with power being passed to neighbouring cars via cable in all cases except one on the 7 car varient.  Unless the train software is written around 4 pickup cars per set, a 4 car formation - surely - shouldn't be too much of a problem.   3 and 2 cars slightly more questionable as none of the longer formations have a drive motor car without an attached car with motors but no pickup shoes.

Examples ...
8 car  DM M1 M2 MS MS M2 M1 DM
7 car  DM M1 MS MS M2 M1 DM
4 car  DM M1 M1 DM
3 car?  DM M1 DM
2 car?  DM DM
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ellendune
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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2018, 08:03:33 am »

I thought I had read somewhere here that VivaRail was being considered for IoW services and that it had been confirmed that they would fit the tunnel.

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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2018, 09:54:45 am »

I thought I had read somewhere here that VivaRail was being considered for IoW services and that it had been confirmed that they would fit the tunnel.



You may well have done, but the article ray951 linked to suggests otherwise. Worth a read!
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didcotdean
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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2018, 10:21:49 am »

It also seems from that article and comments that the actual present-day situation regarding clearances throughout the route might be at variance with the 'received wisdom' and public domain information.
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eightf48544
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2018, 11:26:53 am »

I thought I had read somewhere here that VivaRail was being considered for IoW services and that it had been confirmed that they would fit the tunnel.



You may well have done, but the article ray951 linked to suggests otherwise. Worth a read!

Interesting article perhaps we should look to Stadler who produce many types of units for in particular Swiss narrow gauge. Many seem to be one off variants of standard types produced in small batches.

Like the idea of NSE total route modernisation.

The main problem will still be cost and who pays.
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Chris125
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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2019, 09:01:27 pm »

Gauging professional Gareth Dennis has had a look at the data and is confident 230s should fit Island Line - https://twitter.com/GarethDennis/status/1121055592171356161

Quote
"...the dynamically modelled Class 230 vehicles "fit" (i.e. can be gauge-cleared) without a problem.... A little cosy here and there, but the only thing stopping them running is the Solent!"


"The tunnel is flatly not an issue. Platform gauging always requires a bit of work, and there are two minor overbridges that get tight enough to warrant a closer look, but not a thing that would worry me, and I have to live and breathe this stuff."


"(and I ran this using data that precedes the recent physical work that "may or may not" have been done to make sure they definitely fit anyway)"
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johnneyw
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« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2019, 11:24:58 am »

There's been an announcement about an announcement! The Keep Island Line in Franchise Facebook page is saying that after months of delay upon delay, an announcement is due this month on the Island Line. Without giving anything away, the poster sounded quite upbeat. One of the replies on the same thread said that even with the current political turmoil, a decision had to be made because the 80 year old rolling stock would not last that much longer (quelle suprise).
Anyone offering odds on Class 230s?
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