Train Graphic
Great Western Passengers' Forum Great Western Coffee Shop - [home] and [about]
Read about the forum [here].
Register and contribute [here] - it's free.
 tomorrow - Magor Action on Rail
22/09/2018 - Acton Depot open weekend
23/09/2018 - Somerset Consultation closes
24/09/2018 - Bus consultation closes
24/09/2018 - RCTS / Windsor & Maidenhead
29/09/2018 - IWA AGM Stonehouse
Random Image
Train Running @GWR Twitter Acronyms/Abbreviations Station Comparator Rail News GWR co. site Site Style 1 2 3 4 Chat on off
September 19, 2018, 05:44:12 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most liked recent subjects
[172] Person trapped and dragged, Notting Hill Gate station - 31 Jan...
[72] JourneyCheck ... reasons given
[70] Channel 5 series - Paddington Station 24/7, starting 11 Septem...
[60] MetroBus
[56] Plymouth station stabbing: Murder investigation as man dies - ...
[44] Metrowest Status
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Night Riviera double headed, 22nd June 2018  (Read 1043 times)
bignosemac
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 15924


Question everything.


View Profile
« on: June 23, 2018, 10:49:42 am »

One for the enthusiasts and spotters last night. Well, those who were either up with the lark or who had a friend aboard. The latter for me. The pictures, taken at Plymouth this morning around 0530, come courtesy of bobm.

Last night, Friday 22nd June 2018, 1C99 2345 Paddington - Penzance, the down Night Riviera Sleeper service, was double headed from Reading.

The set started from Paddington with ten carriages (usually eight on a Friday), having an additional two newly refurbished ones locked out of use on the rear. These carriages were sandwiched between 57604 Pendennis Castle upfront, and 57605 Totnes Castle on the blocks. At Reading, 57605 ran round the consist to double head and lead the service onward to the west.


Logged

Former FGW/GWR regular passenger. No more. Despicable company.
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3896


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2018, 01:59:47 pm »

Perhaps one of those extra carriages could be detached at Plymouth in future (as used to be the case), allowing those on board to slumber till a decent hour rather than being slung out, bleary eyed at 0530 and making the sleeper more attractive and a more viable proposition for those travelling to the largest and most important city in the South West?
Logged
LiskeardRich
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3064

richardwarwicker@hotmail.co.uk
View Profile
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2018, 05:41:53 pm »

  most important city in the South West?

Taunton?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 06:24:06 pm by Richard Fairhurst » Logged
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3896


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2018, 07:56:15 pm »

  most important city in the South West?

Taunton?

Taunton is a town, not a city, with a little over 20% of Plymouth's population, and not a shred of its strategic significance or importance. What's your point?

Logged
LiskeardRich
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3064

richardwarwicker@hotmail.co.uk
View Profile
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2018, 09:04:18 pm »

  most important city in the South West?

Taunton?

Taunton is a town, not a city, with a little over 20% of Plymouth's population, and not a shred of its strategic significance or importance. What's your point?



As a regular on this forum I'd expect you to fully understand the nature of the post!!!!!!!
Logged
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3896


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2018, 09:58:04 pm »

  most important city in the South West?

Taunton?

Taunton is a town, not a city, with a little over 20% of Plymouth's population, and not a shred of its strategic significance or importance. What's your point?



As a regular on this forum I'd expect you to fully understand the nature of the post!!!!!!!

......sorry.....must be the ciiiddeerrrrrr! 😂
Logged
bobm
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6905



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2018, 08:27:16 am »

One of the out of use coaches was the first of the refreshed buffet cars - 10217.  Not sure how long before it is put into service.  Staff will need a bit of training on it although I don't know how much the equipment differs from the existing ones.  "Front of house" the seating layout is being changed with a less formal set-up akin to that found on the Caledonian Sleeper.

Along with the investment in on board facilities work has also been continuing at Penzance and, seen below, Truro for dedicated sleeper lounges.


Logged
eightonedee
Transport Scholar
Full Member
******
Posts: 83


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2018, 10:17:32 am »

perhaps the engine that moved to the front remembered that in a former life it was a Brush Type 4 that ran around its train at Reading to take the York to Bournemouth down to the south coast..... Smiley
Logged
IndustryInsider
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6643


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2018, 10:32:34 am »

Perhaps one of those extra carriages could be detached at Plymouth in future (as used to be the case), allowing those on board to slumber till a decent hour rather than being slung out, bleary eyed at 0530 and making the sleeper more attractive and a more viable proposition for those travelling to the largest and most important city in the South West?

That would indeed be a positive thing to do to help Plymouth, which, from a recent visit, looked like it could do with all the help it can get.

There was a reason it stopped though and that was because it wasn’t financially viable.  It was 2006 and the First Great Western franchise was being let and the DfT specified a large number of cutbacks across the network.  I seem to remember it was a case of either stopping the detachment of the carriage at Plymouth, or axe the sleeper entirely.  

According to a Wikipedia reference the average number alighting at Plymouth was just four people!  The additional operational cost simply cannot be justified unless demand has shot up by about ten times that amount since.
Logged

To view my cab run over the new Reading Viaduct as well as a relief line cab ride at Reading just after Platforms 12-15 opened and my 'before and after' video comparison of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/1
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3896


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2018, 04:38:38 pm »

Perhaps one of those extra carriages could be detached at Plymouth in future (as used to be the case), allowing those on board to slumber till a decent hour rather than being slung out, bleary eyed at 0530 and making the sleeper more attractive and a more viable proposition for those travelling to the largest and most important city in the South West?

That would indeed be a positive thing to do to help Plymouth, which, from a recent visit, looked like it could do with all the help it can get.

There was a reason it stopped though and that was because it wasn’t financially viable.  It was 2006 and the First Great Western franchise was being let and the DfT specified a large number of cutbacks across the network.  I seem to remember it was a case of either stopping the detachment of the carriage at Plymouth, or axe the sleeper entirely.  

According to a Wikipedia reference the average number alighting at Plymouth was just four people!  The additional operational cost simply cannot be justified unless demand has shot up by about ten times that amount since.

Things change. In 2006 Plymouth had a (relatively) thriving airport which provided growing options for early arrivals in the City, that closed several years ago and a forward thinking rail company would see an opportunity to step in and take its place, perhaps with the imaginative type of solution suggested, properly promoted and marketed, attracting Business travellers to arrive in Plymouth refreshed at a realistic time to do business.

I am sure your comment about Plymouth needing "all the help it could get" wasn't meant in the slightly sneering way it came across (as a Janner I am sensitive to this sort of thing!  Smiley), but this is the sort of initiative by which GWR could do its bit to help the City from which it draws much of its workforce and its income, as well as making the Sleeper a more practical option for its largest Westbound destination.
Logged
bobm
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6905



View Profile
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2018, 04:51:26 pm »

If there is a business case you would probably need to add at least an extra coach.  I don't know how many use the service to Plymouth at the moment.  I saw two get off the seated section on Saturday morning and none from the berths.  There are usually more on the up trips where the train calls just before midnight most nights. 

The existing berth capacity is sold out many nights and effectively having a whole coach for Plymouth passengers would reduce the chances for those travelling to or from Cornwall to get a berth still further.

As we discovered the other night adding an extra coach may then cause motive power issues adding still further to the costs.

No simple answers - has anyone tried to get an idea of what demand there would be for more sociable sleeper provision to Plymouth?


Logged
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3896


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2018, 05:10:20 pm »

If there is a business case you would probably need to add at least an extra coach.  I don't know how many use the service to Plymouth at the moment.  I saw two get off the seated section on Saturday morning and none from the berths.  There are usually more on the up trips where the train calls just before midnight most nights. 

The existing berth capacity is sold out many nights and effectively having a whole coach for Plymouth passengers would reduce the chances for those travelling to or from Cornwall to get a berth still further.

As we discovered the other night adding an extra coach may then cause motive power issues adding still further to the costs.

No simple answers - has anyone tried to get an idea of what demand there would be for more sociable sleeper provision to Plymouth?




Perhaps the other option could be to retime it so that it gets into Plymouth a bit later at a more realistic time.

It's just not a serious proposition for Plymouth at the moment, perhaps it suits GWR to have it that way, I'd be really interested in how much business traffic as opposed to tourist traffic that the Westbound sleeper gets per se.

There is a yawning (forgive me!) gap at the moment for public transport provision that facilitates business travellers arriving early in Plymouth for a days business from the South East since the closure of the airport - it's either an overnight stay or a very early drive, which leaves you knackered on arrival.

There's been discussion here previously of the viability of an early morning London - Plymouth service, perhaps leaving Paddington 0530-ish to get in before 0900 or ideally a little before - prime candidate for Pullman - but as I've said earlier, returning the sleeper to its previous format with a detachment at Plymouth, marketing it aggressively could be a winner.

I'm sure GWR could undertake some market research to assess likely demand with initial promotional fares etc wouldn't cost any more than the daft "Famous Five" campaign which has achieved little more than ridicule........who knows, Tudor Evans might even chip in a few £ now that he's back on his throne!
Logged
IndustryInsider
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6643


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2018, 06:45:47 pm »

Things change. In 2006 Plymouth had a (relatively) thriving airport which provided growing options for early arrivals in the City, that closed several years ago and a forward thinking rail company would see an opportunity to step in and take its place, perhaps with the imaginative type of solution suggested, properly promoted and marketed, attracting Business travellers to arrive in Plymouth refreshed at a realistic time to do business.

I am sure your comment about Plymouth needing "all the help it could get" wasn't meant in the slightly sneering way it came across (as a Janner I am sensitive to this sort of thing!  Smiley), but this is the sort of initiative by which GWR could do its bit to help the City from which it draws much of its workforce and its income, as well as making the Sleeper a more practical option for its largest Westbound destination.

Not meant to sound sneering at all, just that I found it a slightly depressing place to visit and won't be rushing back.  Perhaps I missed some of the better areas as it was only a half day visit for a funeral. But the streets were filthy, and the shopping area I walked through was showing all the signs of somewhere being in trouble - vaping shops, charity shops and empty shops making up a worrying percentage of the outlets.  Then again, that's the case in so many town centres these days, and it's still much nicer than Gloucester.  Wink

Perhaps they could trial a portion detachment on the busy nights of the week to see how it goes down now the airport has shut?  To be honest though, and to borrow one of your phrases, it's a 'nice to have' and GWR need to sort out the almighty mess they are in regarding several core areas of the business before taking on any imaginative initiatives for the niche areas such as that.

Do we know how well the new improved service from London in the morning is settling in?  An 09:34 arrival is pretty good for business I'd have thought and is earlier than you can get from London to the larger city of Newcastle, though it would be even better if that could be tweaked forward to nearer a 09:00 arrival.
Logged

To view my cab run over the new Reading Viaduct as well as a relief line cab ride at Reading just after Platforms 12-15 opened and my 'before and after' video comparison of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/1
ellendune
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2946


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2018, 07:07:48 pm »

There is a yawning (forgive me!) gap at the moment for public transport provision that facilitates business travellers arriving early in Plymouth for a days business from the South East since the closure of the airport - it's either an overnight stay or a very early drive, which leaves you knackered on arrival.

Do we know how well the new improved service from London in the morning is settling in?  An 09:34 arrival is pretty good for business I'd have thought and is earlier than you can get from London to the larger city of Newcastle, though it would be even better if that could be tweaked forward to nearer a 09:00 arrival.

It may be because I am getting old, but if I needed to get a train at 05:30 to reach Plymouth by 9 I would still be knackered on arrival.  Catching the 06:40 from Swindon to be in Birmingham by 9:00 is bad enough!

If I needed to by in Plymouth by 9 I would go the night before!
Logged
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3896


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2018, 07:32:39 pm »

There is a yawning (forgive me!) gap at the moment for public transport provision that facilitates business travellers arriving early in Plymouth for a days business from the South East since the closure of the airport - it's either an overnight stay or a very early drive, which leaves you knackered on arrival.

Do we know how well the new improved service from London in the morning is settling in?  An 09:34 arrival is pretty good for business I'd have thought and is earlier than you can get from London to the larger city of Newcastle, though it would be even better if that could be tweaked forward to nearer a 09:00 arrival.

It may be because I am getting old, but if I needed to get a train at 05:30 to reach Plymouth by 9 I would still be knackered on arrival.  Catching the 06:40 from Swindon to be in Birmingham by 9:00 is bad enough!

If I needed to by in Plymouth by 9 I would go the night before!

If you're on the train, you can at least get some kip if required.....falling asleep whilst driving down the M4/M5/A38 is not, I am led to believe, particularly advisable.

Being able to get that kip on the sleeper, would, of course, be a better scenario.

Your second point serves to illustrate the problem perfectly.

II - explanation accepted & I don't disagree re: Plymouth city centre.....getting the Luftwaffe back to finish the job sometimes seems like a good idea. (Sometimes you can be forgiven for thinking they already have!)

Your "trial" suggestion sounds like a good one, and whilst I agree that GWRs service is currently in an almighty mess, this just involves tweaking an existing service rather than anything earth shattering but I get that nothing is ever straightforward on the railways. Good to see someone on the inside seeking the art of the possible & imaginative solutions however rather than the common "it'd never work/ooooooooooooos gunna pay for it?" position.

Point taken re: Newcastle but (a) you can fly there and (b) much of the business comes from further North as well as South.......
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 07:46:23 pm by TaplowGreen » Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants