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Author Topic: More Rolling Stock Leaving FGW?  (Read 21343 times)
MikeGTN
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« on: March 16, 2007, 17:41:57 »

I've had several messages from colleagues in the industry mentioning an email bulletin called 'Rail Business Intelligence'. Does anyone have access to this, as its reported in the most recent edition that FGW (First Great Western) are to lose a further 12 Class 158 units "in March"?
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« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2007, 19:33:29 »

Nothing would surprise me!
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grahame
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« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2007, 14:49:13 »

I understand that due to the very poor availability of trains on the West fleet out of Bristol (largely caused by a lack of facilities at the unfinished depot, and a lack of enough staff with approrpiate experience), there have been a lot more trains based there than should be necessary.   Not only will this be costing FGW (First Great Western) money that they had not bargained for, but it will also be tying up the trains which the leasing companies may have anticpiated renting out elsewhere, so First may well be coming under pressure to return the extras.

If FGW have had 12 x 2 coach trains that weren't in there budget for 3 months, that's probably cost them more than hiring a single 153 for 5 years ... and we know what a battle it has been to get movement (DfT» (Department for Transport - about) / First / WCC (Wiltshire County Council (Until March 2009))) on that quarter to provide an appropriate TransWilts service.  So it figures that they'll be quite glad to see them go, especially if they can blame the ROSCOs» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about) for reclaiming them when they were still needed.  And did you know that Northern Rail have just signed up to lease a further 30 158s - see the full press release you can download from here.  Those won't come out of thin air.

Going slighly away from the original topic, it's rather looking as if the only unassigned diesel units that are available are a very few 153s (3? 4?), with some 142 Pacers also becoming available ex Northern Rail.  But I saw elsewhere that Pacers break down every 2000 miles.  In other words, if they were used to provide an appropriate service on the TransWilts we could expect a train failure roughly once a week.  I can't see any TOC (Train Operating Company) going for that option under normal circumstances.
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MikeGTN
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« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2007, 15:04:39 »

I can't see any TOCs (Train Operating Company) going for 142s either, particularly in the current climate where there appears to be a fair amount of 158s and similar sets changes hands almost weekly. My concern is that FGWs (First Great Western) current tactic of leasing just enough stock to cover the minimum service specification will leave them out in the cold later. Even if they were convinced that we needed a sensible TransWilts serivce, or strengthened Bristol area commuter services, there just won't be anything left.
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12hoursunday
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« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2007, 11:43:10 »

I have been told by a reliable person who works for fleet than First have PURCHASED a number of DMUs (Diesel Multiple Unit) to go with the 5 (i think) HST (High Speed Train) sets they own for use on FGW (First Great Western). However they need a fair bit of work doing to them so it is likely that they won't be in use for a while!
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grahame
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« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2007, 13:09:48 »

Hi ... and welcome to the forum; I note from another post that you're one of the FGW (First Great Western) team, and it's a huge help to people like myself who are just passengers/customers to have other around who can explain that reasons behind some of the thing that we see happening, and wonder about.

Did you get any indication as to what class of DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) were being talked about?  Something that's likely to be used on "The West" fleet such as 150 / 153 / 158, or something for the Paddington suburban services of more 125s perhaps?  I guess it's not the Adalantes as they wouldn't need "a fair bit of work doing on  them".
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12hoursunday
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« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2007, 15:33:21 »

It's 143's I believe but don't hold me to that and they are for use at the West Country end of the line so to speak. The 180's were due to go back in December but are now staying to at least next June.

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devon_metro
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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2007, 16:56:53 »

Great. Useless trains for the West Country. I look forward to the increased station dwell times and I hope Netowrk Rail downgrade the track quality hence banning the use of them. In this case, I would even saw 150s are good. There would be no way it would be 180s as I believe FGW (First Great Western) lease all of them!
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Jim
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2007, 18:14:00 »

So we are getting ATW (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC (Train Operating Company))) 143's!
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2007, 18:17:52 »

It's 143's I believe but don't hold me to that and they are for use at the West Country end of the line so to speak. The 180's were due to go back in December but are now staying to at least next June.
I guessed that was going to be the answer as 142s/143s are about the only spare DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) stock thats going spare at the moment and that nobody wants.

150s/153s/158s are a precious commodity with many of the regional train companies desperate to get hold of whatever they can to aleviate chronic overcrowding that doesnt just affect our part of the world. Though I sigh at the thought of FGW (First Great Western) purchasing 142/3s rather than other DMUS we would like to see, if it helps improve services on busy commuter routes by releasing 150s/153s from West branchlines then it is a good move. If it's so FGW can release the 12 158s that it currently has then not good, just a downgrade in the quality of stock running on the Western Region.
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grahame
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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2007, 09:02:23 »

I would be delighted to see a 142/143 unit running from Frome to Swindon each morning at 07:35, 09:35 and 11:35, and each afternoon at 14:35, 16:35, 18:35 and 20:35, returning 1 hour later in each case from Swindon.  This was one of the "base cases" that was being looked at by FGW (First Great Western) and Network Rail ... which I understand may have been blown out of the water by the NON-AVAILABILITY and LEASING COST of an extra train.

Perhaps there's a sensible solution here?

Trowbridge to Swindon by bus - 95 minutes
Trowbridge to Bath by train, change, by train to Swindon - 60 to 90 minutes
Trowbridge to Swindon by direct train - 35 minutes

Traffic growth (2001 - 2006) on this corridor - between 9% and 35% compound per annum
Future growth - 50% population increase along the corridor in the next 30 years.

P.S.  I understand there are pathing issues involved on the single track section; with a dedicated train running in this way, there would be more flexibility for the timetablers than if they were trying to provide an appropriate service on the line using "stolen hours" from trains primarily intended for other services.

I would be very happy to travel from my home town of Melksham in a 142/143 up to Swindon, and I would be happy to pay a fare that was 30% higher than the current fare on this route. What about it, FGW?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 09:06:15 by grahame » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2007, 12:40:52 »

^ That sounds like a great idea, but sadly if this happened we couldn't run the Swindon-Salisbury services as I've heard before that 143s can't go further south than Warminster. You could use them for short journey trains terminating at Westbury (or even Frome/Yeovil), though- presumably even originating from the Stroud Valley!
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« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2007, 17:42:51 »

If FGW (First Great Western) get rid of 12 x 158s and in place get 5 x 14xs then I wouldn't be surprised if the Melksham line gets axed as these trains are needed on far busier parts of the network! Sorry to disapprove but I can see where FGW are coming from when they have little resources (although it is their fault in fairness) although I have seen a number of these trains and they are virtually empty and from what I hear many others are wedged. If the 1/2 carriages used on the Melksham line could go elsewhere it wouild solve many problems. The ideal solution to melksham is to have a private or Open Acces operator to run it as FGW obviously are not interested.
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grahame
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« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2007, 09:31:27 »

If FGW (First Great Western) get rid of 12 x 158s and in place get 5 x 14xs then I wouldn't be surprised if the Melksham line gets axed as these trains are needed on far busier parts of the network! Sorry to disapprove but I can see where FGW are coming from when they have little resources (although it is their fault in fairness) although I have seen a number of these trains and they are virtually empty and from what I hear many others are wedged. If the 1/2 carriages used on the Melksham line could go elsewhere it wouild solve many problems. The ideal solution to melksham is to have a private or Open Acces operator to run it as FGW obviously are not interested.

Hi, Liam.

Many thanks for posting this, as it gives me an excellent opportunity to correct one or two misconceptions, and to answer questions that others who are not familiar with the "TransWilts" line may be asking themselves too.  I fear this may be a long one!

As things stand at the moment, withdrawing the current trains that run between Swindon, Chippenham, Melksham, Trowbridge and Westbury would NOT release any resources for use elsewhere at a time they would be needed.  The line is at present, technically, run without a train; I have seen the wording "marginal time" used, and what that means is that the trains are run off-peak in the extreme. The availabilty of trains that aren't doing anything else is the governing factor, and NOT the times that passengers want to travel - in effect, the customer being served is the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) who require two round trips a day (but Northbound ONLY on Sunday) and whist they gave some timing guidance to FGW on timing, they were willing to relax even that when asked. FGW do not see the passenger as their primary customer.

There is bound to be a very low ridership on a train service that runs at a time that is extreme off-peak and does not offer round trip (commute) options. Here is a graph that shows the times that trains start out on journeys and the relative loading - I have superimposed the start times of the TransWilts trains on the DfT's graph to put this line and the service it gets in context.

Let's put that into context.   How busy is the 06:35 Exeter to Exmouth?  (I choose that line because, I think, you're from Devon, Liam, and because it's a line that Andrew Griffiths of FGW often uses for comparison purposes when talking to us about the TransWilts).  And how busy would it be if the only two return trips back up from Exmouth were the 07:15 and the 19:20? And how busy would it be if, missing the 06:35 you had to wait for the 18:47?  My informed guess is that this skeleton service would be pretty empty. 

When you look into it, the timing BEFORE the morning and AFTER the evening peak is even more stupid than a service that runs before or after each peak would be. At least a service before or after each peak would allow for a normal working day for people who could be flexible.   But with an arrival in Swindon BEFORE the government-required time of 08:00, and a departure back that doesn't leave until after half past six, the working day cannot easily be slid to fit.

The timing and frequency of trains is key to their use and it is not a fair comparison to look at the utilisation of a twice-a-day service and extrapollate the figures to give you the alternative results for a train every 2 hours. Journey figures for the TransWilts well exceeded 100,000 journeys per annum in the last couple of years on just 5 round trips a day, compared to an estimated 8,000 journeys for this year based on the current two trips. That is real evidence of the sensitivity of the loading of a train service to the timing and frequency with which it runs.

But we need to look at future travel requirements and not back to the past in order to formulate an appropriate service. West Wiltshire - Warminster, Westbury, Trowbridge and Melksham - are growing rapidly and set to continue to grow for the next 20 years. Add in Frome - part of the same rail-connected group but just over the border in Somerset - and you have five towns with a strong commute requirement to Swindon, to Chippenham. From Swindon and Chippenham, there are travel requirements to Salisbury and to West Wiltshire. By bus, journey times are dreadful - 95 minutes Swindon to Trowbridge (v 35 minutes by train), and over 2 hours from Swindon to Salisbury (a train can do that in 70 minutes).  And try working out Salisbury to Chippenham, or Melksham to Westbury by bus if you have a few minutes to spare - I bet you'll be shocked. By train with a "dogleg", change in Bath - you'll be equally shocked to find that Swindon to Salisbury takes the same 2 hours that the bus takes.   The road network on the corridor is already saturated (and when the Westbury bypass is built, the consultants tell us there will be an extra 42% HGVs above natural growth added to the A350 through villages and towns to the North). In recent history, with a stable service of just 5 trains each way daily, ridership on the TransWilts line grew at between 10% and 35% per annum (compound, depending on which measures you look at) and all the data that I have points to this being a long term pattern that would have been sustained if the train service had been left unaltered - the market was far from saturated, and demographic and other changes would have boosted rather than depressed its use.

Having had the very worst - the shit end - of the timetable changes in 2006, I fail to see why we should take the butt yet again of the failure of [whoever] to specify the resources necessary to run a proper service.  Pulling the TransWilts services would not (as Liam has suggested) release a train for use elsewhere - it would simply add to the misery and depression caused by the lack of a decent service here.  And restoring an appropriate service on the TransWilts would be the very best use of the additional "143" resources.  Elsewhere, you'll see people writing that they don't want these trains on their lines. Hereabouts, you'll find a welcoming home for one of them and - mark my words - in 2 years time it would be packed to overcrowding.

Footnotes

On Open Access:  Nice idea .. has been looked at in some detail.  Issues involve the heavy admin / cost of doing this on a single-train service, depots, etc.  Also note discouraging "trade off" type fines if the open access operator delayed one of FGW's precious 125s, and the lack of co-operation that First would provide at their stations.  We saw this up to April 2006 at Swindon, with FGW staff actively obstructing the use of the Wessex Train service.

On resources: FGW are trying to have their cake and eat it; they got caught in a Dutch auction of "how few trains can we run a service on", and bid so low that they can't cope. I'm glad to see them putting their hands in their pockets and buying five EXTRA trains (where did that figure come from?) as that will mean that they will be able to provide a more robust service - assuming they continue to lease up to the limits set for that.  Driver resources are also raised as a question sometimes, with it taking a year to train new drivers. Since the frachise has been running for 15 months, they should easily have any new drivers they had to take on up and running by December '07.

On "FGW obviously not interested":  Actually, I think they ARE interested in running the service - although they would probably be first to admit that they're more concerned as getting as best possible a financial bung out of the DfT and WCC (Wiltshire County Council (Until March 2009)) (Wiltshire County Council) as they can in order to do so.   [Other example - Severn Beach line]
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 07:10:21 by grahame » Logged

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martyjon
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« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2007, 20:10:58 »

I have been advised today that FGW (First Great Western) are to lose more 158's than expected to be re-deployed in the North as has been mentioned on this board preciously. As has also been stated, FGW are to get 143's to help overcome the overcrowding which according to my infomant is not so acute as in the area where the 158's are going according to the DFT (Department for Transport). But my informant understands FGW are to retain the Adelantes as no other TOC (Train Operating Company) wants them and DfT» (Department for Transport - about) have lent heavily on the ROSCO» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about) to secure a deal so that they can pinch more 158s from FGW to head North and provide the stored 143's to the West Country.
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