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Author Topic: Comedian humiliated for using disabled space on train - BBC News 17th July 2018  (Read 19236 times)
rogerw
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« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2018, 18:55:54 »

When I was on a Stagecoach bus recently there was a notice by the wheelchair space to the effect that the space was for wheelchairs and if a pram/pushchair was using it they would have to move if a wheelchair boarded (can't remember the exact words) Perhaps a similar notice by wheelchair spaces on trains would clarify the issue and make it clear that wheelchairs have priority.
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« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2018, 19:03:23 »


I doubt whether we will ever hear the outcome to this event as GWR (Great Western Railway) will cover the event up with a statement similar to, "the company does not publically reveal details of disciplinary measures taken against its employees", in other words he'll keep his job and be free to humiliate other travellers in the future.

You probably won’t hear the outcome.  From my experiences within GWR they aren’t shy in putting someone through a disciplinary, and I’ve known dismissals as well.  The company has to get it spot on though because any mistake they make in the disciplinary process the unions will jump on 

Everyone is always quick to assume a baby in a pram is just a baby in a pram. I doubt wether this is the situation here but when is a baby born with a disability entitled to use the disabled spaces on public transport? 

With the exact same rights as any disabled person of any age. If the person or persons with a disabled newborn wish to occupy a space set aside for the disabled then they have the right to do so. Even if said baby is in what is, or appears to be, a normal pram/buggy.

I’ve seen this on a bus. Pram with a baby on some kind of breathing related equipment in the disabled space and a wheelchair user who was denied boarding. The wheelchair user wouldn’t have it and insisted the mother folded the pram.  When it was clear the conversation was going no where and the mother was getting quite distressed we decided she needed telling rather more bluntly!!
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grahame
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« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2018, 21:07:15 »

Everyone is always quick to assume a baby in a pram is just a baby in a pram. I doubt wether this is the situation here but when is a baby born with a disability entitled to use the disabled spaces on public transport? 

I wondered ... I doubt we will ever know, but feel there just has to be more to this story than has appeared in the 'press'.  One party is professionally articulate, the other unlikely to be so.  It is dangerous for us to come to a conclusion.
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« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2018, 22:08:11 »

I understand the train in question only had a first class disabled space.  There was no coach C with a standard class space.

That doesn’t excuse the behaviour reported but could, in fact, add another twist.  A wheelchair user in those circumstances should automatically be upgraded to first class.  That shouldn’t apply to a pram. 
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« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2018, 22:18:07 »

I’ve seen this on a bus. Pram with a baby on some kind of breathing related equipment in the disabled space and a wheelchair user who was denied boarding. The wheelchair user wouldn’t have it and insisted the mother folded the pram.  When it was clear the conversation was going no where and the mother was getting quite distressed we decided she needed telling rather more bluntly!!

Who needed telling? Mum or the wheelchair user?
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« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2018, 22:37:47 »

I wondered ... I doubt we will ever know, but feel there just has to be more to this story than has appeared in the 'press'.  One party is professionally articulate, the other unlikely to be so.  It is dangerous for us to come to a conclusion.

I've seen at lot of this baseless supposition in the past couple of days. It really is depressing (it actually angers me) to see and hear so many able bodied people look to excuse the TMs(resolve) behaviour, or suggest Tanyalee Davis was somehow in the wrong. So what if she is articulate. Does that somehow ameliorate what happened to her? The TM was pretty articulate over the PA (Public Address).

Did Tanyalee Davis go looking for the confrontation? I've seen no evidence of that. What I have seen, and heard from her, is that the situation was escalated, first by a fellow passenger who held the mistaken belief that a pram could go into a disabled space, and then by a TM who sided with the mum & baby.

Yes, Tanyalee Davis has a 'platform'. Yes she's included her experiences of society's treatment of her as a disabled person in her stand-up. She hasn't before though felt the need to go so public. Why this time? Perhaps because this incident was the straw that broke the camels back? Perhaps because this incident was so demonstrably wrong. Perhaps because, for her, enough is enough and it's no longer a laughing matter to be included in her stand up material.

More power to her elbow I say.

I have no problem coming to a conclusion. The TM was 100% wrong.
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« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2018, 00:51:50 »

I wondered ... I doubt we will ever know, but feel there just has to be more to this story than has appeared in the 'press'.  One party is professionally articulate, the other unlikely to be so.  It is dangerous for us to come to a conclusion.

I've seen at lot of this baseless supposition in the past couple of days. It really is depressing (it actually angers me) to see and hear so many able bodied people look to excuse the TMs(resolve) behaviour, or suggest Tanyalee Davis was somehow in the wrong. So what if she is articulate. Does that somehow ameliorate what happened to her? The TM was pretty articulate over the PA (Public Address).

Did Tanyalee Davis go looking for the confrontation? I've seen no evidence of that. What I have seen, and heard from her, is that the situation was escalated, first by a fellow passenger who held the mistaken belief that a pram could go into a disabled space, and then by a TM who sided with the mum & baby.

Yes, Tanyalee Davis has a 'platform'. Yes she's included her experiences of society's treatment of her as a disabled person in her stand-up. She hasn't before though felt the need to go so public. Why this time? Perhaps because this incident was the straw that broke the camels back? Perhaps because this incident was so demonstrably wrong. Perhaps because, for her, enough is enough and it's no longer a laughing matter to be included in her stand up material.

More power to her elbow I say.

I have no problem coming to a conclusion. The TM was 100% wrong.

Quoting in full, in reply to your full post, BNM

I was careful not to speculate. I just cautioned that we might not have the full story.

We are utterly right to go the extra mile in society for those less able than ourselves. Indeed it's enshirned in law that we do so to the extent of giving them an experience which is no worse than those that the rest of us experience. 

At times, we are requested/required to wait for total evidence - for all parties to have been fairly heard - before any final conclusion is reached, and indeed at times to know that final outcome. That's far from satisfying to the people following the story, but I understand the need.
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« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2018, 02:02:17 »

At times, we are requested/required to wait for total evidence - for all parties to have been fairly heard - before any final conclusion is reached, and indeed at times to know that final outcome. That's far from satisfying to the people following the story, but I understand the need.

Requested and required by whom?

In these sort of incidents we rarely, if ever, hear the defence or justification for the actions of the railway employee. Does that mean we refrain from comment entirely? Refrain from stating an opinion based on available evidence?

grahame, you didn't just caution that we don't have the full story. There's your clear inference that there has (your emphasis) to be more to this story. Followed by making the point that Tanyalee Davis is professionally articulate. I'm still not clear what you meant by that. If there has to be more to the story then its surprising that GWR (Great Western Railway) haven't rolled back on their initial strong condemnation of what happened to Ms Davis. That is very telling in itself. Rarely does the employer make such a strong statement so soon after an incident like this. With the wide media coverage GWR would surely, three days after the incident, be able to update the media if there is evidence that counters Tanyalee Davis' version of events.

One can legitimately make comment (I don't think I've made any unfounded suppositions here) based on available evidence. And I hope one can robustly challenge suppositions and hypotheses that don't match that available evidence.

This is not an isolated incident. Despite ever stronger legislation over the years, disabled people are still routinely treated shabbily by public transport providers. In the last ten years I know of only one incident that turned out to be 'more to this story' . That was the incident between Qamar Khaliq and Northern Trains in 2010. I'll freely admit I got burned on that one. Mr Khaliq turned out to be a bit of fantasist.

One incident though won't change my strongly held belief that public transport providers are routinely treating the disabled as an inconvenience. Routinely denying them the hard won rights to be treated equally. Routinely breaking the law. I will continue to defend the disabled in these situations. Defend them against the claims that "this must've happened" or "that must've happened" when there is no evidence to support those hypotheses. I'll continue to rail against those who try to defend the indefensible by attempting to blacken the character of the disabled complainant.
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« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2018, 05:23:50 »

There remains a seed of doubt in my mind, and personally I'm refraining from conclusions. I suppose that is a personal 'requirement'.  Posters on the forum are responsible for their own postings and content.

You have taken the specific case and used it as an example of something more general. My general case comment, which you didn't quote back, remains:

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We are utterly right to go the extra mile in society for those less able than ourselves. Indeed it's enshirned in law that we do so to the extent of giving them an experience which is no worse than those that the rest of us experience.
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« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2018, 07:56:23 »

One of the common, and perhaps disappointing themes in this discussion and similar on other forums is the extreme difficulty of a significant number (not all) of those employed on/close to the railways in accepting the disabled customer's version of events without a "yeah but", equivocation, or desperate search for another angle.

I'm pretty loyal to my own Business and quite proud of what we do, but I am also big enough to accept, unequivocally, that sometimes we get it wrong. Very occasionally, dramatically so.

Generally, I do not require a judicial level of proof to be able to make my judgement on this. There is a concept called "balance of probability", which generally suffices.

Equally, I have noted that there is a pretty unedifying campaign on certain social media platforms in respect of the TM(resolve). It's in everyone's interests to complete the investigation swiftly and take whatever actions are necessary. I hope that all get the justice they deserve.


« Last Edit: July 19, 2018, 09:55:29 by TaplowGreen » Logged
Phil
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« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2018, 10:28:15 »

Although not particularly relevant in this instance, which is in effect primarily about a pushchair improperly blocking a disabled space, this does flag up to me a concern that maybe there is a wider issue here. Is modern train design in fact allowing enough space for the number of disabled persons wishing to use them?

I almost got involved in an incident a while back which made me ponder this. I was sitting in a disabled space and was very politely asked to move by the train manager so that a blind lady could sit there. My immediate reaction was to apologise and move elsewhere, which of course I did - however, thinking about it afterwards, I am in fact a disabled persons railcard holder myself, and was travelling on a reduced ticket (which the train manager had yet to check - as it happens, she never did); so I could very easily have got involved in an unedifying argument, in effect playing "top trumps" with the blind lady as to whose disability railcard carried the most "points".

To my mind, nobody should be placed in this kind of situation, and the only civilised way forward to my mind is to undertake some analysis of current levels of demand to establish whether the current provision for disabled persons - and indeed pushchair, folding bike and shopping trolley users - is in fact adequate.
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« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2018, 10:31:59 »

For sure, the number of accesible spaces allowed for in car parks is way over the number required generally.

But accessible spaces/seating on trains? I'm sure that those representing passengers with need for these spaces would have poked their heads above the parapet if this was a general problem of being insufficient.
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« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2018, 11:01:01 »

I'm sure that those representing passengers with need for these spaces would have poked their heads above the parapet if this was a general problem of being insufficient.

Nobody represents me, sunbeam. I'm not saying I particularly need a disabled seat, but I am entitled to one - and the only way of establishing whether the entitlement of myself and potentially thousands of others is being effectively met is to analyse the usage. It's not difficult. If sixteen advance tickets are purchased using a disabled railcard for a particular service and there are only 12 places available, there's a problem straightaway.
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« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2018, 11:16:10 »

On a one-off booking? Sorry, but that's just not realistically feasible....if there's a *regular* problem with insufficient provision, completely agree, but if there's one problem in say a couple of months, then it's for the train company on receipt of the booking to handle in any appropriate way. And that might be to convey some by other means/services, depending on requirements.

There's no discrimination here - if a train is full to bursting, for example, all passengers can't be carried.
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2018, 12:10:30 »

Suppressed demand.
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