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Question: Which of these do you believe should be seriously considered for inclusion in a restructured fare system?  (Voting closed: August 07, 2018, 07:04:06)
Fares based on distance travelled - 24 (16.6%)
Fares based on the level of service received - 17 (11.7%)
Fares where the cost is the same at all times of day and for all days of the week - 4 (2.8%)
Fares based on time of booking - 7 (4.8%)
Fares based on the amount of flexibility required - 13 (9%)
Fares designed so that it is unnecessary to buy a ‘split-ticket’ in order to get the cheapest deal. - 20 (13.8%)
Fares based on encouraging travel to fill up empty seats - 17 (11.7%)
Fares based on loyalty to regular travellers - 15 (10.3%)
Fares which provide savings for certain groups in society - 12 (8.3%)
Fares where both the outward and return journey fares are based on time of day travelled - 15 (10.3%)
Some other factor (please post) - 1 (0.7%)
Total Voters: 29

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Author Topic: Future fare system - what elements should it include?  (Read 6515 times)
grahame
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« on: July 31, 2018, 15:21:09 »

Poll to measure the views of forum members as we consider the "fares consultation" which is summaries [here]. Please refer to that thread for further details, and look at the official consultation [here].
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grahame
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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2018, 06:42:02 »

Interesting to see no suggestions at all of other factors

Fares based on what people are prepared to pay, anyone?

Fares based on economic encouragement to people to live in certain places, anyone?

I would venture to suggest that both of these factors can be found in the current fares regime. Should they be considered for the future?
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Bob_Blakey
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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2018, 21:09:46 »

No, they should not. Fares should be entirely distance based with no variations save for Season Ticket discounts, higher prices over certain sections of the network during the peak and a First Class premium.
The Fares application/database would price tickets according to the above guidelines so that ‘split ticketing’ and ‘break of journey’ queries would be rendered redundant.
Railcards should be scrapped.
In terms of the ‘Anytime’ v ‘Off Peak’ pricing issue the fare, for example, from EXD» (Exeter St Davids - next trains) to PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) in the early morning would be calculated as EXD to NBY» (Newbury - next trains) or RDG(resolve) at the base price + NBY or RDG at the ‘Peak’ rate. The rail industry should have enough data to figure out what the base pence/mile figure should be and everything else flows from that. (This is a summary of my Fares Consultation submission - I have no expectation that the industry/government would adopt any of these ideas).
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JayMac
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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2018, 22:37:40 »

No, they should not. Fares should be entirely distance based with no variations save for Season Ticket discounts, higher prices over certain sections of the network during the peak and a First Class premium.
The Fares application/database would price tickets according to the above guidelines so that ‘split ticketing’ and ‘break of journey’ queries would be rendered redundant.
Railcards should be scrapped.
In terms of the ‘Anytime’ v ‘Off Peak’ pricing issue the fare, for example, from EXD» (Exeter St Davids - next trains) to PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) in the early morning would be calculated as EXD to NBY» (Newbury - next trains) or RDG(resolve) at the base price + NBY or RDG at the ‘Peak’ rate. The rail industry should have enough data to figure out what the base pence/mile figure should be and everything else flows from that. (This is a summary of my Fares Consultation submission - I have no expectation that the industry/government would adopt any of these ideas).

Let's look at London to Bristol and Bristol to Severn Beach.

The Anytime Single from Paddington to Bristol TM(resolve) is £105.70 for a journey of 118.5 miles. A pence per mile figure of £0.89.

The Anytime Single from Bristol TM to Severn Beach is £2.00 for a distance of 13.5 miles. A pence per mile figure of £0.15.

How do you reconcile those fares to come out with a purely mileages based 'base price' that works for both? Increase the Severn Beach fare to £0.89 per mile? Instead of £2.00 it would be £12.00.

It would be unbelievably difficult to find a purely distance based 'base price' that would keep the fares take revenue neutral without hugely increasing the price of short distance commuter fares to slightly reduce the cost of long distance fares.

A guaranteed way to drive commuters off the railway and into their cars.
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« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2018, 00:44:51 »

Indeed, there simply has to be some weighting towards four other factors that can and should affect the price:  Frequency of service; length of journey; duration of time; and (like it or not!) affluence of the area.

An example is Swindon to London and Llanelli to Llandrindod.

Both weigh in at just under 80 miles.  The off-peak fare from Swindon to London return is £48, the off-peak fare from Llanelli to Llandovery is £14.70.  However the reasons for the difference become clearer when you factor in the four or five trains an hour from Swindon to London which is about the same number that operate per day between Llanelli and Llandrindod.  Swindon to London usually takes around an hour, but Llanelli to Llandrindod takes around three times as long.

I'm sure there are other more extreme example out there.
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« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2018, 07:34:29 »

Someone mentioned railcards ... but the questions are wider.

Quote
Fares based on loyalty to regular travellers
Fares which provide savings for certain groups in society

In extremis, are we asked whether consideration should be give to the future provision and direction of other products?

Railcards, season tickets, children's fares, free travel for the under 5s, Britrail, priv tickets, groupsave, rangers / rovers?
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broadgage
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« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2018, 07:52:33 »

The one that annoys me the most is free travel for under fives (under six or seven in practice as no one checks) The theory used to be that young children sat on the lap of the owner.
These days the owner of the child expects a free seat for the child, and can be very militant in demanding this.

I was pretty disgusted when having paid the full open single fare, I was "asked" by the train manager to stand in order that a mother and child could sit (i.e. have two seats with one ticket)
The mother seemed disgusted that she had to seek the assistance of staff, and expected two seats to be an automatic entitlement.

I am also very doubtful about half price tickets for children, since the parents are very militant in expecting/demanding a seat for the child at the expense of those who paid for an adult ticket.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2018, 08:20:08 »

The one that annoys me the most is free travel for under fives (under six or seven in practice as no one checks)
There is a very simple (and often used) check. Don't ask the parent how old their offspring is - Ask the child! Children of that age tend to tell the truth and can be very proud of telling somebody their age.
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« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2018, 08:24:22 »

That is something that really needs sorting out, Broadgage. I am usually easy going an laid back but that sort of attitude from the mother and child makes me seething. I would have 'stood' my ground, from a sedentary position of course, and then followed the issue up  with the CEO (Chief Executive Officer) of the train company, my local MP (Member of Parliament) and the SoS.
Good point from Phil Wakely too.
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grahame
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« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2018, 08:52:11 »

The one that annoys me the most is free travel for under fives ...

I am also very doubtful about half price tickets for children ...

These are excellent points, but I very much doubt that outcome actions from the current process will be a societal change, especially bearing in mind the the consultation specifically excludes much more minor changes such as changing the fare box total taking.

There is discontent at elements of the current fare system, and frustrations at its complexity. But I'm darned if I can see an alternative system that substantially reduced or removes the complexity, and at the same time gives a net reduction in the discontent elements.  At times I will post "how about" ... to test an idea; with the fares consultation, I can't really come up with a realistic idea within the constraints we have been set.

OUTSIDE the constraints ...

Remove adult fares and free travel for the under fives, and let anyone travel at what are currently child fares.  Could this eliminate railcards, groupsave, britrail and season tickets simply because the people who buy those products would almost all be making a saving at the new rates.

Reset fares based not quite on raw mileage, but rather on a set (different) charge per inter-station section.  So that the rate per mile on the Heart of Wales would average out at 7p per mile, and on the GW (Great Western) main line to Swindon at 21p per mile.

But I come unstuck on peak fares, on the extra admin of doing away with season tickets (impractical queues unless you use alternative technology), upset caused to groups such as school children who use season tickets each term.   And I'm pretty darned sure that such a system will end up changing economic balances - real hardship for some, probably a greater call on the exchequer, changes of balances of train loading.    We could probably come up with an excellent system for the future - but with a near-impossible task of getting to that system from where we are today.





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grahame
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« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2018, 08:56:12 »

There is a very simple (and often used) check. Don't ask the parent how old their offspring is - Ask the child! Children of that age tend to tell the truth and can be very proud of telling somebody their age.

If circumstances let you (and staff should be able), good call for the free v half fare.  By the time you'r checking half fare v adult fare, you may discover that 15, 16 and 17 year olds have lost the ability to count accurately and forget a year or two of their lives
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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2018, 10:43:00 »

And let's not forget that Seniors can sometimes 'forget' to renew their Railcard and can be quite indignant when caught using an out of date one.

This is 'public' transport we are talking about. To which all members of society from aged zero to 100+ have access. Outside of legal requirements toward the disabled, we do not, and should not, place a value judgement on someone's right to travel, or right to occupy a seat/space, based on what they have or haven't paid.

I've absolutely no time for the likes of broadgage when they moan about having paid 'full fare' and then express moral indignation that someone who's paid less has got a seat. So what if its a child? It's perfectly possible that the child under five has a paid for ticket if the parent/guardian is using a F&F Railcard. It could equally be one of many  other reasons why a person has got a seat ahead of you and has paid less. 'Full fare' does not equal guaranteed seat. Never has. Unless you make a reservation.
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« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2018, 10:49:44 »

The one that annoys me the most is free travel for under fives (under six or seven in practice as no one checks)
There is a very simple (and often used) check. Don't ask the parent how old their offspring is - Ask the child! Children of that age tend to tell the truth and can be very proud of telling somebody their age.


You bet, and sometimes when the parent tells the lie the kid tugs parents coat and blurts out that "I'm not 4, I'm 6".
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broadgage
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« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2018, 11:17:09 »

In the case to which I refer, I had not only paid the full first class fare but had also booked a seat and had taken my booked seat, but was still asked to stand by the train manager in order that a mother and baby could have two seats.

It would seem that having a child not only gets two seats for the price of one, but also overrides a booking.

I was later refused a refund of the difference between first and standard class.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
grahame
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« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2018, 12:07:23 »

And let's not forget that Seniors can sometimes 'forget' to renew their Railcard and can be quite indignant when caught using an out of date one.

This is 'public' transport we are talking about. To which all members of society from aged zero to 100+ have access. Outside of legal requirements toward the disabled, we do not, and should not, place a value judgement on someone's right to travel, or right to occupy a seat/space, based on what they have or haven't paid.

Totally agreed. But noting:

1. It's not just seniors who can forget to renew their railcards - it could be any sort of railcard holder

2. A seat reservation on a particular train should entitle you to that seat - otherwise, what's the point?  I could further suggest that if the railway fails to honour seat reservations (for example running a 2+7 when it should have been a 2+8, or an IET (Intercity Express Train) for an HST (High Speed Train)), the reservation holder should be entitled to a seat in preference to those without reservations.

Pragmatism, manners and common sense should also prevail. If someone is taken ill on a journey, or isn't able to stand on a service for which seat reservations cannot be made - for goodness sake let them sit.  I think that's what "priority seats" are for ...
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