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Author Topic: Intercity Express Train (IET) failure, near Exeter, 13 September 2018  (Read 4696 times)
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« Reply #60 on: September 14, 2018, 03:15:40 pm »

Is there no way on these new super dooper plastic trains of releasing the brakes, the carriages have to be shunted at some times in their lives if only at their births and their funerals.

I recall many times when in my youth I saw the fireman of a steam train walk the length of the carriages pulling a string cord on carriages because a steam locos vacuum was different to a diesel locos vacuum. Even later when air braked stock was common it was not uncommon to see coaches being shunted and there was no operating brake on the coaches the braking power being the shunting locomotive itself, mind you shunting speeds were usually no more than single figures.


Vac braked trains worked in an entirely different way to air brakes.  Each Vac cylinder effectively had its own "Vacuum Reservoir" if the Vacuum in the res was harder than the loco trying to release the brakes then some air need to be let into the res, which was done cylinder by cylinder hence the train would not be without automatic brakes
 
Also there is a difference between shuntin empty stock and stock with passangers on board; it is a cardinal sin to operate a passanger train with out automatic brakes; it would be a very brave decision to release the brakes on a passanger train that has deffective brakes, you might not get the brakes back on (Armagh rail disater 12 June 1889)
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Mark Carne 26 June 2015 - "The challenges of delivering myriad improvement projects while still running a railway seven days a week were simply overwhelming".
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« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2018, 03:32:44 pm »

I started a thread about this incident on an IET Facebook group. There was a reply there from the Network Rail Incident Controller.
Quote
I managed this incident from start to finish on a NR perspective. Firstly the fitter was 90 minutes away after early diagnostics proved unable to fix. Single Line Working was ready to be implemented at 1825, just over an hour after after the train stopping. Upon the fitter being unable to fix it was deemed evacuation was the only solution left. The plan was to use the Fire Brigade. Their response was 60 minutes and the XC Voyager to stop behind the failure and passengers detained via the Up Main cess to enable single line working to keep going. Underfoot ballast conditions prevented this so the Down Main had to be closed too. Evacuation although taking as long as it takes was the highest priority for the 389 passengers on board.

Does anyone know if the fitter being 90 minutes away was due to the whole ludicrous staff situation (where it is Hitatchi's staff who have to look after the trains, not GWR's)?
If it was a HST instead would a fitter been able to get there sooner (e.g. from Exeter)?
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« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2018, 04:32:04 pm »

I started a thread about this incident on an IET Facebook group. There was a reply there from the Network Rail Incident Controller.
Quote
I managed this incident from start to finish on a NR perspective. Firstly the fitter was 90 minutes away after early diagnostics proved unable to fix. Single Line Working was ready to be implemented at 1825, just over an hour after after the train stopping. Upon the fitter being unable to fix it was deemed evacuation was the only solution left. The plan was to use the Fire Brigade. Their response was 60 minutes and the XC Voyager to stop behind the failure and passengers detained via the Up Main cess to enable single line working to keep going. Underfoot ballast conditions prevented this so the Down Main had to be closed too. Evacuation although taking as long as it takes was the highest priority for the 389 passengers on board.

Does anyone know if the fitter being 90 minutes away was due to the whole ludicrous staff situation (where it is Hitatchi's staff who have to look after the trains, not GWR's)?
If it was a HST instead would a fitter been able to get there sooner (e.g. from Exeter)?


No point sending a GWR fitter from Exeter. They won’t know anything about the train.

Hitachi have numerous fitters in the region, including travelling fitters, the nearest available fitter would have been sent. Luck has a part to play in it, another day and a Hitachi fitter may have been travelling on the train.  Don’t forget, Hitachi can dial into the train even from Japan and diagnose faults.
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WelshBluebird
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« Reply #63 on: September 14, 2018, 04:36:37 pm »

No point sending a fitter from Exeter. They won’t know anything about the train.

Hitachi have numerous fitters in the region, including travelling fitters, the nearest available fitter would have been sent.

I wasn't really just talking about Exeter. It was more a question of: has the change to Hiatchi staff looking after / fixing the trains (as opposed to GWR staff which is the case for the HST's) meant that staff who can fix issues will now take longer to get to incidents compared to similar GWR staff for HST's? 90 minutes away seems to be quite a distance away (especially when that is 90 minutes AFTER initial fault finding, so what, closer to 2 hours at least before someone even arrives on site, let alone does anything useful).
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« Reply #64 on: September 14, 2018, 04:46:28 pm »

No point sending a fitter from Exeter. They won’t know anything about the train.

Hitachi have numerous fitters in the region, including travelling fitters, the nearest available fitter would have been sent.

I wasn't really just talking about Exeter. It was more a question of: has the change to Hiatchi staff looking after / fixing the trains (as opposed to GWR staff which is the case for the HST's) meant that staff who can fix issues will now take longer to get to incidents compared to similar GWR staff for HST's? 90 minutes away seems to be quite a distance away!

There’s Hitachi maintenance staff in Bristol, Laira and possibly Long Rock.  There’s also travelling Hitachi fitters for the South West based at Exeter, Plymouth, Truro and Penzance so for minor issues it shouldn’t take any longer.
The nearest maintenance facility is obviously Bristol, so any fault requiring specialist tools may have to come from Bristol.
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« Reply #65 on: September 14, 2018, 07:20:51 pm »

No point sending a fitter from Exeter. They won’t know anything about the train.

Hitachi have numerous fitters in the region, including travelling fitters, the nearest available fitter would have been sent.

I wasn't really just talking about Exeter. It was more a question of: has the change to Hiatchi staff looking after / fixing the trains (as opposed to GWR staff which is the case for the HST's) meant that staff who can fix issues will now take longer to get to incidents compared to similar GWR staff for HST's? 90 minutes away seems to be quite a distance away!

There’s Hitachi maintenance staff in Bristol, Laira and possibly Long Rock.  There’s also travelling Hitachi fitters for the South West based at Exeter, Plymouth, Truro and Penzance so for minor issues it shouldn’t take any longer.
The nearest maintenance facility is obviously Bristol, so any fault requiring specialist tools may have to come from Bristol.
Having been out with traveling fitters in BR days in the 70's on the then new HST; which failed on a regular bases; there is only so many tools you can carry and as for spares  Grin  The units might have some common parts that are known to give problems.  Even if they travel to the failed train by car / van again there is only so much they can bring with them even with info provided by the data link the fault may be beyond the possibility of a lineside repair



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« Reply #66 on: September 15, 2018, 12:14:16 am »

Having been out with traveling fitters in BR days in the 70's on the then new HST; which failed on a regular bases;

Failed on a regular basis?  Surely not?  I can find no such threads on internet forums of the day!   Wink
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« Reply #67 on: September 15, 2018, 08:27:56 am »

Having been out with traveling fitters in BR days in the 70's on the then new HST; which failed on a regular bases;

Failed on a regular basis?  Surely not?  I can find no such threads on internet forums of the day!   Wink


It was pre fax days …………….. messages were sent by telex ……………….  Grin
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« Reply #68 on: September 15, 2018, 08:44:27 am »

Having been out with traveling fitters in BR days in the 70's on the then new HST; which failed on a regular bases;
Failed on a regular basis?  Surely not?  I can find no such threads on internet forums of the day!   Wink

It was pre fax days …………….. messages were sent by telex ……………….  Grin

Funny - I thought the facsimile machine was older than any kind of telex, or indeed than the telephone!
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« Reply #69 on: September 15, 2018, 09:55:55 am »

Funny - I thought the facsimile machine was older than any kind of telex, or indeed than the telephone!

I recall seeing machines at the Daily Mail offices on High Holborn in the 1960s on a school trip, sending and receiving pictures between their offices.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirephoto#/media/File:Belinograph_BEP-2V_-_MfK_Bern.jpg
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« Reply #70 on: September 15, 2018, 06:07:19 pm »

Having been out with traveling fitters in BR days in the 70's on the then new HST; which failed on a regular bases;
Failed on a regular basis?  Surely not?  I can find no such threads on internet forums of the day!   Wink

It was pre fax days …………….. messages were sent by telex ……………….  Grin


Yes I agree, but the general office fax machines were 1980s BR in the 70s did most of its movement coms by telex

Funny - I thought the facsimile machine was older than any kind of telex, or indeed than the telephone!
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« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2018, 07:47:49 am »

Having been out with traveling fitters in BR days in the 70's on the then new HST; which failed on a regular bases;
Failed on a regular basis?  Surely not?  I can find no such threads on internet forums of the day!   Wink
It was pre fax days …………….. messages were sent by telex ……………….  Grin
Funny - I thought the facsimile machine was older than any kind of telex, or indeed than the telephone!

Well I can remember the telegram and the telegraph boys/young me who delivered the telegrams on a 250cc BSA motor cycle, now don't get me started on another subject or I'll have to consider starting a new thread, Telegrams and how they were delivered.
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« Reply #72 on: September 17, 2018, 09:09:52 am »

Worth remembering that such a long delay due to brake failure is not unique to IETs. The sainted HSTs aren't beyond sitting down and stranding passengers for hours.

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12752.0
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« Reply #73 on: September 17, 2018, 11:31:45 am »

Worth remembering that such a long delay due to brake failure is not unique to IETs. The sainted HSTs aren't beyond sitting down and stranding passengers for hours.

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12752.0

I agree, hence my limited criticism of this particular incident. Trains old or new DO breakdown, and anything new is more liable to breakdowns initially.
Hitachi will presumably act to improve reliability, they have a strong financial incentive to so do.

I feel that the response to both this recent IET failure, and to the earlier HST failure, could have been better. A poor response is however not the fault of the train, old or new.

My criticism of the IETs is more general, and may be summarised as being a general downgrade from a proper inter-city train to a regional DMU.
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« Reply #74 on: September 17, 2018, 11:44:53 am »

I feel that the response to both this recent IET failure, and to the earlier HST failure, could have been better. A poor response is however not the fault of the train, old or new.
Shows little has changed in between these two failures.
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