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Author Topic: Alternative Bus service during SWR strikes  (Read 2098 times)
grahame
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« on: October 24, 2018, 20:36:22 »

During the SWR» (South Western Railway - about) strikes, the Three Rivers service becomes non-existent. Blue Star buses at

https://www.facebook.com/bluestarbus/photos/a.104587734238/10157133282349239/

say

Quote
We've activated our 'Three Rivers Rail' bus ticket, meaning you can use the #Bluestar1 between Winchester and Chandler's Ford or or Southampton and Chandler's Ford for just £2 if you have a valid (but useless) train ticket due to the RMT (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) strikes.

Now - here is a conundrum.  I really hate promoting a service that at normal times competes with the train services promoted by our good friends at Three Rivers.  But then I hate not helping passengers find the best service at all time.

THANK YOU to Nick of Three Rivers CRP (Community Rail Partnership) for sharing BlueStar's post ... much appreciate your steer ... and much appreciate the philosophy that the passenger is paramount.
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paul7575
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« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2018, 22:34:52 »

This RTT» (Real Time Trains - website) list for today suggests that quite a few more services ran than “non existent” suggests:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/CFR/2018/10/24/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=SW
I reckon that’s about 2 out of 3?

Paul
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stuving
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« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2018, 22:48:46 »

This RTT» (Real Time Trains - website) list for today suggests that quite a few more services ran than “non existent” suggests:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/CFR/2018/10/24/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=SW
I reckon that’s about 2 out of 3?

Paul

2 out of 3 (normally an hourly service, give or take a few minutes) is exactly what SWR» (South Western Railway - about) were promising in their strike-day timetable.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2018, 08:46:25 »

Down to 50% on Saturdays....
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grahame
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« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2018, 10:16:46 »

Service reliability - in this case as a result of Industrial action but it can be for other causes - has a massive impact not only at the time, but later on too once things are fixed - on some of the lesser main lines.

I recall hearing the utter frustration from the Community Rail Officer who looks/looked after the promotion of the Seaford branch - a Southern operated line - at the time that almost the entire service had been replaced by a bus.   Reduction of clock face to sporadic on Three Rivers is, I understand, making it hard for them to sustain positive traffic direction, and also hard to maintain customer confidence.   On TransWilts we have had a similar task due to 50 days of no off-peak trains this year, and report from Heart of Wessex and Severnside lines also suggest significant issues that have been a major setback for having the traffic (and train operator income! ) where it could have been.
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Fourbee
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« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2018, 15:46:38 »

Reduction of clock face to sporadic on Three Rivers is, I understand, making it hard for them to sustain positive traffic direction, and also hard to maintain customer confidence.

In your experience grahame, in general, are more people put off by unevenness in times or the pattern itself?

say
a) 12.05, 13.10, 14.05
would be seen as more favourable to more people than
b) 12.05, 13.10, 14.15
for example?
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eightf48544
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« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2018, 10:33:23 »

Fourbee I think it depends on what the normal clock face time is.

If it's 05 or earlier it doesn't matter you've just got  an extra 5 or 10 minute wait for a train.

If the normal time is 20 then neither is acceptable because unless you know or get to the station really early you are liable to miss them.

IMHO (in my humble opinion) early trains are far worse than late and maybe even cancelled ones. Reliability is the cornerstone of a good service. 
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grahame
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« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2018, 11:44:27 »

Reduction of clock face to sporadic on Three Rivers is, I understand, making it hard for them to sustain positive traffic direction, and also hard to maintain customer confidence.

In your experience grahame, in general, are more people put off by unevenness in times or the pattern itself?

say
a) 12.05, 13.10, 14.05
would be seen as more favourable to more people than
b) 12.05, 13.10, 14.15
for example?

What an interesting question.  You give me far more credit for knowledge on the topic than I have, but I will share some thoughts (which are wider than your question)

A clock - 60 minutes in the hour - is society's established way of slicing time and it's become a natural way of setting cyclic patterns that are easy to learn and follow.  So for both the providers and users of a public transport services, a 60 minutes (or multiple or division thereof) element makes huge sense - in planning, pattern running, information systems, public knowing when to turn up.

BUT ... clocklface has its issues.

1. It's too granular at the very point ( services half hourly to every 2 hours) where you're likely to want to adjust:

Train every  10 minutes - 36.00 in 6 hours. Step down to every  12 minutes is an interval increase of  20%
Train every  12 minutes - 30.00 in 6 hours. Step down to every  15 minutes is an interval increase of  25%
Train every  15 minutes - 24.00 in 6 hours. Step down to every  20 minutes is an interval increase of  33%
Train every  20 minutes - 18.00 in 6 hours. Step down to every  30 minutes is an interval increase of  50%
Train every  30 minutes - 12.00 in 6 hours. Step down to every  60 minutes is an interval increase of 100%
Train every  60 minutes -  6.00 in 6 hours. Step down to every 120 minutes is an interval increase of 100%
Train every 120 minutes -  3.00 in 6 hours. Step down to every 180 minutes is an interval increase of  50%
Train every 180 minutes -  2.00 in 6 hours. Step down to every 240 minutes is an interval increase of  33%
Train every 240 minutes -  1.50 in 6 hours. Step down to every 300 minutes is an interval increase of  25%
Train every 300 minutes -  1.20 in 6 hours. Step down to every 360 minutes is an interval increase of  20%

2. It can result in very long layovers (inefficient stock use) [or tight schedules often broken] at terminal points

76 minutes in every 120 at Swindon on the two hourly / 70 minute run service to Cheltenham Spa
41 minutues in every 60 at Salisbury on the hourly / 67 minute run service to Romsey via Southmapton Central and Aiport

3. Once your clockface service frequency is below a certain level, you're likely to find specific instances where it's unfortunate.   Take a two-hourly clockface service into an employment centre - if the service arrives at 08:45 for people to get to work at 09:00, it would leave back at (say) 16:55 when they finish work at 17:00 ... next rain service 18:55 if strict clock face.

Those apply to rail and road

... on rail also, clockface may interfere with services on other interval patterns, and may give rise to even worse efficiency issues due to capacity; the TransWilts being a classic example of the latter, where an hourly clockface service would require three trains - each running for 90 minutes and then parked up for 90 minutes (46 at Westbury and 44 at Swindon) because of the section of line that was singled in the last century.

... on road also, clockface throughout the whole service running times means it has be be timed for worst congestion times, and results in buses "waiting time" along the way at any time except peak - that's frustrating and expensive in operation and people's time.

Now ... if you can't practically achieve the apparent Utopia of a clockface service, what should you do?

The Severn Beach line runs on a 40 minute service - in some ways that's half-clock face as it's xx past the even hour and yy and zz past the odd hour - an elemet of a pattern that people can remember.   There was some concern this wouldn't work when it was introduced, but the line and service blossomed on introduction, only stuttering as the capacity and reliabilty of the service has stuttered. 

Another possible approach is to run a service (say) every hour and ten minutes if you can't get round in the hour.  I've seen this on self contained heritage lines - but on a line that's part of the national network or interfaces to it, where clock face patterns are the norm, such an approach is really difficult to schedule and causes all sorts of glitches and near-miss almost-connections.

On TransWilts and on some other lines with substantial single track sections, 2 trains in 2 hours (but not at the same time in each hour) would work.  Trains at 07:00 , 08:20 and then (both) every 2 hours would work operationally, the asymetric nature allowing the trains to pass each other away from the single line section, but at the cost of a reduction in simplicity and an increase in some inter-train gaps.

For certain less frequent lines which run from a junction through to a terminus, especially where the service at the junction is irregular and most passengers connect to mainline trains, I'm going to suggest that clockface could be counterproductive.   On current timetable (but not necessarily when the half hourly regular service comes in) this would apply to the lines to Looe and Newquay. It might also be applied to lines as diverse as Bleaneau Ffestiniog and Whitby.

In conclusion - I suspect the best thing is to look at each line individually.   Where the service is more frequent that hourly, the metrics will differ from where the service is less frequent; in those latter cases, individual tuning will come to the fore where in the former case it'll just be a question of "there will be another along shortly".

In general, number of services, at a reasonable distribution, is more important than whether they are clockwise or not. I would rather have a good spread of 14 trains per day even if each one was a different minutes past the hour than 8 on s strict 2 hour cycle.

Final note - there are strong cases for joining up services such as ones I mentioned earlier which are very inefficient ... 41 minutes or 76 minutes sitting idle in a bay platform might be usefully used on an extended route.  Of course, the 41 minutes does provide time for a Personal Needs Break for the crew, so even that gets complicated and I wouldn't dare suggest Salisbury - Romsey - Eastleigh - Soutampton area - Totton - Marchwood, now would I?
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Fourbee
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« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2018, 13:44:47 »

A clock - 60 minutes in the hour - is society's established way of slicing time and it's become a natural way of setting cyclic patterns that are easy to learn and follow.  So for both the providers and users of a public transport services, a 60 minutes (or multiple or division thereof) element makes huge sense - in planning, pattern running, information systems, public knowing when to turn up.

I would guess that timetable information flow between people is increased when it is a simple xx minutes past the hour affair. During the peaks most regular passengers/commuters get to know the idiosyncrasies and tweaks (the vast swathes of numbers leaving London in the evening would attest to that) I'd say.

Maybe this issue affects leisure/discretionary travellers more than the "seasoned pro". Do some people just turn up and accept they'll get on whatever the next service is? Maybe people are more app/phone driven now in their decision making so a traditional paper timetable and it's pattern are not relevant.

A while back I spoke to a lady at Alton who had turned up for the 12:15 to Waterloo. She was disappointed - the dangers of expecting no exceptions in an otherwise logical pattern (the gap still exists because of the oil train that used to run).

On a bit of a tangent, this year I have seen a 3 bus sandwich twice in different areas of the country on a service with a 10 minute frequency. A large interval increase for the unfortunate. One with a depot that uses mobile phone communication and another with radios, but obviously no effective control over the service in either case. Of course in London, there is Centrepoint control which endeavours to keep the service spaced evenly with speed up/slow down instructions direct to drivers.
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grahame
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« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2018, 15:51:03 »

A while back I spoke to a lady at Alton who had turned up for the 12:15 to Waterloo. She was disappointed - the dangers of expecting no exceptions in an otherwise logical pattern (the gap still exists because of the oil train that used to run).

That's not unique - I remember that there used to be (or rather not be) a missing service on Thursdays on the Southminster branch.   And the other side of the same coin, a recent incident of a visitor to us in Melksham where he looked up his train and then decided to catch the one an hour earlier, assuming clock face!
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bradshaw
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« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2018, 17:41:12 »

My stepdaughter and husband decided to come to Dorset for the weekend. I advised Dorchester Sth, not their normal Crewkerne route.

Not a good move; the connection from the Brighton train at Southampton was not held, despite being given in the National Rail journey planner. Then the following XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) service was on time to Eastleigh but lost time and the connection at Bournemouth for Dorchester. The outcome a TWO HOUR wait!

One would have thought that, on a strike day with reduced service, more consideration would have been given to connecting trains.

The Brighton (1N20) arrived in Southampton at 1625 while the SW Bournemouth (1W71) service left at 1624.

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Adelante_CCT
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« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2018, 17:49:28 »

That's not unique - I remember that there used to be (or rather not be) a missing service on Thursdays on the Southminster branch.


Correct Graham, that caught me out once. I'd planned to go to Southminster on a Wednesday, but at the last minute changed it to the Thursday using the same timings as before. Turned up at Wickford to find no mention of the service on the departure board and the arriving train from London then formed an ECS (Empty Coaching Stock) service which at the time didn't make sense. A few minutes later a pair of class 20s on a flask train came trundling through which explained it.
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