Minutes Matter

[whole diary]

[Station Manager]

Wouldn't it be nice if all trains ran to time, whilst customers of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and other train services put up with crowded trains, expensive (and cheap) journeys at times, it's a common fact that it is important to people that services run to time, going to/from work, for connections and apointments, flights and shipping services arriving on time is sometimes a must.

Two things I will comment on:

For very important meetings, flights etc, I would suggest taking trains that get you in an hour or more early.
I often lodge in Hotels overnight when something important is on the next day.

As an old railway hand I'm not all that happy that train doors are now closed at least 1/2 a minute before departure and often underway 20 seconds before time, when I joined the railway trains never got the "right away" before time, but I guess things change.

Something passengers may not know is just how much time is spent by FGW, (and other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company)) looking into "lost minutes".
On a daily basis lost minutes are investigated, seaching for reasons, what lessons can be learnt and to agree/disagree with Network Rail where the "Blame for lost minutes lie", as of course NR^» (Network Rail - home page) charge for delays caused by FGW, likewise FGW reclaim charges from NR when NR cause delays.

I often think if all that time and money was rechanneled into projects we would have a much better railway.

It does seem strange to spend maybe an hour "Brain storming" why the 08.20 lost two minutes at the station.

So all you good passengers out there, rest assured FGW do care about your train running late, it might be costing FGW money, let alone Taxi costs for missed connections etc.

[grahame]

For very important meetings, flights etc, I would suggest taking trains that get you in an hour or more early. I often lodge in Hotels overnight when something important is on the next day.

Indeed - I smiled when I read this and see how much it effects me personally.  I ofte work away from home for 2 days up to a week at a time.   I always make every endeavour to be on time and, being a trainer who's giving a class, it is important for me to be there and ready when my class of perhaps 10 delegates - each a well paid company employee for whom time is money - walks into the training room.

I have always aimed to arrive an hour before the course is due to start, even though at a push I can walk in and start much quicker.   But some things have changed over the past five years.

The roads have become progressively worse - less predicable with timing, more jammed.   And the trains that I use have been significantly reduced in frequency - to the extent that I'm forced onto the road much more now, which is the last thing I really want.  And where there are still trains scheduled to run, they seem incredibly unreliable - cancellations, late running, overcrowding and bustitution makes every journey feel a bit like an adventure.   Significantly, get outside the South West and that's less of an issue - the ends of trips in Liverpool, Nottingham, Ely and East London have been clockwork and seated.  The ends in the South West have failed seemingly most times - poor service, or no longer any suitable service.

There's an ironic side effect here - I've actually been pushed to be more environment friendly.  For sure I drive more often, but commutes are replaced by hotel stays - and in the situations where customers come to us, they now come the night before, stay much more, commute less - very much as Station Manager suggest he does and we should.

The subject is "minutes matter".  Yes, they do at times.  A missed connection London connection off the 06:43 southbound from Melksham means a long delay awaiting the next train.   And (on the same service as it happens), a Swindon departure a few minutes before the first train of the day from London arrives makes the service pretty darned useless.

[jane s]

Yes, why is it now that trains can actually pull away BEFORE the advertised departure time? Surely if they are earlythey should wait until the station clock on the platform ticks over to the correct time?

Also I personally object to the "30 seconds before departure" rule.

The advertised departure time in the timetable should be the moment the DOORS CLOSE, not the time the train is supposed to pull away, i.e. it should be considered perfectly normal & reasonable to jump on a train at 13:59 and 59 seconds if it is scheduled to leave at 14:00!!!!

(And don't just say "you should have got there earlier" - if your connecting train was late this is hardly your fault, is it?)

[gaf71]

Yes, why is it now that trains can actually pull away BEFORE the advertised departure time? Surely if they are earlythey should wait until the station clock on the platform ticks over to the correct time?

Also I personally object to the "30 seconds before departure" rule.

The advertised departure time in the timetable should be the moment the DOORS CLOSE, not the time the train is supposed to pull away, i.e. it should be considered perfectly normal & reasonable to jump on a train at 13:59 and 59 seconds if it is scheduled to leave at 14:00!!!!

(And don't just say "you should have got there earlier" - if your connecting train was late this is hardly your fault, is it?)

No this is not reasonable. The time it takes for dispatch duties to be completed is what this 30 seconds is for. The TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s get fined heavily for delays even for as little as 1 minute and this is why this 30 seconds before departure procedure is in place. You said it yourself, so you obviously know about it, and it is well advertised. As for a delayed connecting train, if the connection is that close, that you are going to arrive on the platform in that last 30 second period, the departing train would normally be held in my experience.

[jane s]

No - the point us that the ADVERTISED departure time should be the time the despatch duties COMMENCE - then the train would leave 30 seconds after the advertised time.

This should obviously not be penalised at all as it should only be what is happening anyway.

i.e. what I am advocating is to change the existing system by advertising the departure as a minute earlier than the train would actually be expected to leave (and the time at which penalties would start to be measured from).

What should NEVER EVER happen is what happened on Saturday when I was on a train that was actually pulling out of Reading station a whole 10 seconds earlier than the advertised departure time as read on the platform clock I could see out of the window.

The point is that if you are running for a train with 10 seconds to spare, you should never have to worry that the doors may close before you get there.

[gaf71]

No - the point us that the ADVERTISED departure time should be the time the despatch duties COMMENCE - then the train would leave 30 seconds after the advertised time.

This should obviously not be penalised at all as it should only be what is happening anyway.

i.e. what I am advocating is to change the existing system by advertising the departure as a minute earlier than the train would actually be expected to leave (and the time at which penalties would start to be measured from).

What should NEVER EVER happen is what happened on Saturday when I was on a train that was actually pulling out of Reading station a whole 10 seconds earlier than the advertised departure time as read on the platform clock I could see out of the window.

The point is that if you are running for a train with 10 seconds to spare, you should never have to worry that the doors may close before you get there.

So you are saying that you want the railway to change it's whole operating system, by changing all trains to depart 1 minute later? In this case you sit looking at the station clock thinking that every train you are on is leaving a minute late. Seems a bit weird to me. If you advertised the departure time as a minute earlier than actual departure time you will still get people arriving in the last 30 second period, expecting to get on

[jane s]

Most people are more concerned with the time a train arrives than the time it departs from a performance point of view!!!!

i.e. a train leaving late is never going to annoy anyone - it is when it arrives late at the other end that there is a problem.

So what I am saying is that advertised departure times & late arrivals are two different things, and therefore it is illogical to use timetabled departure times to measure performance.

Timetables are published to give the customers an idea of "when they need to get to the station by", which is why the "departure" time should be "the instant at which it is no longer possible to board this train", and NOT "the instant at which the train starts to move".

Performance should always be measured using arrival times, as this is what matters to the passengers once they are on the train.

A train will usually spend around a minute minimum in the station, so this is NOT the same as the departure time.

I agree that people will always arrive late no matter what time is used in the timetable - but if a train is scheduled to depart at 14:00 & someone tries to get on at 13:59:45 and the doors are already shut, the customer has a perfectly justified complaint and I would side with him wholeheartedly.

If he tries to get on at 14:00:01, he does not as he is the one in the wrong. The train should not be held up in these circumstances unless there is a genuinely late connecting train.

[gaf71]

Most people are more concerned with the time a train arrives than the time it departs from a performance point of view!!!!

i.e. a train leaving late is never going to annoy anyone - it is when it arrives late at the other end that there is a problem.

So what I am saying is that advertised departure times & late arrivals are two different things, and therefore it is illogical to use timetabled departure times to measure performance.

Timetables are published to give the customers an idea of "when they need to get to the station by", which is why the "departure" time should be "the instant at which it is no longer possible to board this train", and NOT "the instant at which the train starts to move".

Performance should always be measured using arrival times, as this is what matters to the passengers once they are on the train.

A train will usually spend around a minute minimum in the station, so this is NOT the same as the departure time.

I agree that people will always arrive late no matter what time is used in the timetable - but if a train is scheduled to depart at 14:00 & someone tries to get on at 13:59:45 and the doors are already shut, the customer has a perfectly justified complaint and I would side with him wholeheartedly.

If he tries to get on at 14:00:01, he does not as he is the one in the wrong. The train should not be held up in these circumstances unless there is a genuinely late connecting train.

I do agree with what you are saying, but there has to be a cut off time at some point, in this case 30 secs before departure, so i think we will have to agree to disagree. I will just add that you would not expect to get on an airplane after the boarding procedure has shut.....it's the same principle.
As for a train leaving late never annoying anyone, you obviously don't work on the railway! Every time a train I am working leaves late, I am asked many times 'for the reason' even if it is only a couple of minutes, and 'will we still arrive on time?', to which the answer is often 'no'. You also have to consider that all trains are in a booked pathway, so prompt departure is essential to avoid delaying other services, especially at busy periods.

[eightf48544]

You can't actually compare boarding time for planes.

You know you have to be at the airport probaly 2 hours before your flight to check in book cases, clear security etc. You know because it's probably somewhere that boarding closes 20 minutes or so before departure.

They also make extensive announcements for passengers who have checked in but not boarded because of the pain of having to remove any cases they've checked in.

No I think the departure procedure starts at advertised departure time not before. I think it's unreasonable that at Taplow a train pulls out anything up to 20 seconds early. The driver should press the close button at the advertised departure time from the station.

Did you know that it was Chris Green who had the synchronised digital flap clocks installed on all NSE^▸ (Network South East) stations for this very reason. Then there would no argument about times as all of NSE was working to the same time.

The problem at Taplow and I expect other intermediate stations which causes early departure is over generous running times and inconsistent driving. A good driver can do Maidenhead to Taplow in 21/2 to 3 minutes vice 4 minutes allowed. Other drivers take 5 minutes. Whilst there is no problem with the latter he's already late the former tend to pull out 20/30 seconds early. At Taplow it is possible to be dropped by car at the entrance to platform 4 and catch a train on that platform in under 20 seconds. Even the drivers that take 5 minutes will arrive at Padd on time as there is so much slack in the timetable.

[dog box]

Sorry but passengers should arrive in good time for the train they wish to catch, and as for saying train dispatch should be started at the departure time and people dont worry about how late a train is leaving a station it utter rubbish .
By doing this and with the other station related delays you would lose a good 15 min by the time you got to the final destination

[devon_metro]

No - the point us that the ADVERTISED departure time should be the time the despatch duties COMMENCE - then the train would leave 30 seconds after the advertised time.

This should obviously not be penalised at all as it should only be what is happening anyway.

i.e. what I am advocating is to change the existing system by advertising the departure as a minute earlier than the train would actually be expected to leave (and the time at which penalties would start to be measured from).

What should NEVER EVER happen is what happened on Saturday when I was on a train that was actually pulling out of Reading station a whole 10 seconds earlier than the advertised departure time as read on the platform clock I could see out of the window.

The point is that if you are running for a train with 10 seconds to spare, you should never have to worry that the doors may close before you get there.

It's not like there is warning in the TT books stating that doors are locked 30 seconds before departure or anything...

Besides. Trains often leave Reading 5+ minutes early as the service to London is so frequent at times.

[Btline]

No! The departure time advertised is the time when the train should leave.

Therefore, the despatch routine should be started at:

*15 secs on straight platforms, unbusy (e.g. Worcester Shrub Hill)

*30 secs on busier platforms which are straight (e.g. Oxford)

*1 min on either very busy platforms (Reading) or curved platforms (Worcester Foregate Street)

Sorry- the idea of starting the despatch at the dep time is awful! Even with changing the timetable to be a minute earlier, punctuality would suffer. Drivers and guards (and passengers!) would have no idea when the train should leave.

Remember, trains need to spend a while in some platforms. Adelantes are hard pushed to depart Worcester Foregate Street within 3 minutes (at peak times). HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) with SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening), I would say 5 mins!

With the increase in HSTs and SDO, the idea given above (starting despatch at dep time) is utterly ridiculous, and would reduce FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s reputation even further!

[TerminalJunkie]

as for saying train dispatch should be started at the departure time and people dont worry about how late a train is leaving a station it utter rubbish .
By doing this and with the other station related delays you would lose a good 15 min by the time you got to the final destination

So, using your logic*, does that mean that if the train despatch procedure began thirty seconds earlier than it does now, you would gain a good 15 min by the time you got to the final destination?

* and I use the word logic quite wrongly...

[Lee]

Interestingly, East Midlands Trains is issuing employees with atomic watches and new whistles to use to dispatch trains (link below.)
http://www.stagecoachgroup.com/scg/media/press/pr2008/2008-03-20/