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  • Williams Review - 1st deadline: January 18, 2019
  • Williams review - final inputs: May 31, 2019
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Author Topic: Williams-Shapps Plan for Rail / Great British Railways  (Read 48155 times)
grahame
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« Reply #135 on: May 23, 2021, 06:40:42 pm »

Williams-Shapps Plan for Rail : Page 14

'Overcomplication appears built into many aspects of the rail network. There are around 75 different types of train in passenger service on today’s network ...

Let's go for one sort of train for each major sector then.  If there's a problem it'll be easier to withdraw them all and put them through the same checks and repairs.    Silly having Pedelinos, Voyagers and Meridians really when they all could be 80x trains.

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broadgage
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« Reply #136 on: May 23, 2021, 06:48:03 pm »

I would certainly support some standardisation of new rolling stock.

A dozen mechanical designs should meet almost any needs, with differing internal fit out as needed.

AC electric intercity/long distance trains, 125 MPH, end doors.
AC electric suburban trains, 100 MPH, doors at one third/two thirds.

DC (Direct Current) electric intercity trains, 110 MPH, end doors.
DC electric suburban trains, 80 MPH, doors at one third and two thirds.

Dual mode AC/DC trains two versions, similar to the AC electric versions.

That is six basic designs, to which could be added another six bi-modes, each of the above plus battery power.

Sleepers could be the same MECHANICAL design but with different internal fit out.

Mixed trains with provision for carrying mail, light freight and the like would be the same mechanical design, but with one vehicle given over to mail or freight.

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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Lee
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« Reply #137 on: May 23, 2021, 06:57:40 pm »

Williams-Shapps Plan for Rail : Page 14

'Overcomplication appears built into many aspects of the rail network. There are around 75 different types of train in passenger service on today’s network ...

Let's go for one sort of train for each major sector then.  If there's a problem it'll be easier to withdraw them all and put them through the same checks and repairs.    Silly having Pedelinos, Voyagers and Meridians really when they all could be 80x trains.



Pedelino - Is that the new Venetian high-speed tilting gondola train hybrid?
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broadgage
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« Reply #138 on: May 23, 2021, 07:04:02 pm »

Williams-Shapps Plan for Rail : Page 14

'Overcomplication appears built into many aspects of the rail network. There are around 75 different types of train in passenger service on today’s network ...

Let's go for one sort of train for each major sector then.  If there's a problem it'll be easier to withdraw them all and put them through the same checks and repairs.    Silly having Pedelinos, Voyagers and Meridians really when they all could be 80x trains.



I agree, despite the present IET (Intercity Express Train) problems. To avoid any recurrence of this problem, I would go for a STAGED replacement of existing stock.
Suppose as an example, that in say 2028, that 30 new trains are needed, long distance, 25Kv/battery power. I would say that 30 new trains should be ordered. After some years of satisfactory service, additional stock of THE SAME DESIGN may be ordered, for other fleet renewals. Newer types of component, such as a different type of battery may be used in the follow on order but the follow on trains MUST be fully inter-operable with the older ones, and have exactly the same cabs and controls.
And different components should only be allowed when there is a clear advantage in so doing.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
jamestheredengine
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« Reply #139 on: May 23, 2021, 07:38:26 pm »

I'd suggest staging it as ordering extra 9-car 80x's ASAP, with the new-spec interiors. As they come online, use that as a convenient time to refit the existing 9-car units. Then once there are enough 9-car units to cover the Paddington services, cascade the 5-car units onto routes where the interiors will be considered less sub-standard, such as the West Wales services, Cardiff-Portsmouth, and Cardiff-Nottingham. This would create a timescale for getting terminus stations ready for 9-car trains (resiting that bloody starter signal at Carmarthen, etc) and clearing obstructions (e.g. singling or gauntletting the Hamble Viaduct).
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broadgage
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« Reply #140 on: May 23, 2021, 08:04:48 pm »

I'd suggest staging it as ordering extra 9-car 80x's ASAP, with the new-spec interiors. As they come online, use that as a convenient time to refit the existing 9-car units. Then once there are enough 9-car units to cover the Paddington services, cascade the 5-car units onto routes where the interiors will be considered less sub-standard, such as the West Wales services, Cardiff-Portsmouth, and Cardiff-Nottingham. This would create a timescale for getting terminus stations ready for 9-car trains (resiting that bloody starter signal at Carmarthen, etc) and clearing obstructions (e.g. singling or gauntletting the Hamble Viaduct).

Agree.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
grahame
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« Reply #141 on: May 23, 2021, 08:54:51 pm »

From Christian Wolmar

Quote
The Great British Railway is a fudge riding for a fail

We all knew it was a mistake and we told them so. When the Tory government pushed through the privatisation of the railways a quarter of a century ago, it involved splitting up British Rail into more than 100 companies. At the time, everyone, from Tory backbenchers and the Labour party to British Rail managers, warned that it was a reckless plan that would cost money and do nothing to improve the railways.

[snip]

Now the very same political party that broke up British Rail because it was supposedly inefficient, hidebound by tradition and unaccountable, wants to stick Humpty Dumpty back together again.

[snip]

Despite all this, ideology still stops us getting the sensible railway passengers deserve. Instead of simply running the trains themselves, Great British Railways will contract out services to private companies, most of which are actually owned by foreign state railways such as the French SNCF (Societe Nationale des Chemins de fer Francais - French National Railways) and the German Deutsche Bahn. This will add cost and complexity. At the last election, Labour suggested simply renationalising the whole system. This is three-quarters of the way there, but it would have been better to go the whole hog.

[snip]


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broadgage
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« Reply #142 on: May 23, 2021, 10:04:51 pm »

I'd suggest staging it as ordering extra 9-car 80x's ASAP, with the new-spec interiors. As they come online, use that as a convenient time to refit the existing 9-car units. Then once there are enough 9-car units to cover the Paddington services, cascade the 5-car units onto routes where the interiors will be considered less sub-standard, such as the West Wales services, Cardiff-Portsmouth, and Cardiff-Nottingham. This would create a timescale for getting terminus stations ready for 9-car trains (resiting that bloody starter signal at Carmarthen, etc) and clearing obstructions (e.g. singling or gauntletting the Hamble Viaduct).

Agree, and in more detail to my earlier hasty reply.
DESPITE the present issues I would support the purchase of additional Hitachi IETs (Intercity Express Train).
My well known dislike of the wretched things is due to the appalling internal fit out and facilities that are unsuitable for inter city routes.
Build some more 9 car sets, but with a proper inter city layout, including padded seats, buffet, luggage space and other luxuries.
Use these new inter city sets on GWR (Great Western Railway) long distance services, and then withdraw and improve the existing 9 car sets to a similar specification.
Cascade the 5 car sets to secondary or regional services.

I dont much like underfloor engines but would reluctantly accept these if the trains were in all other respects proper intercity trains and not suburban DMUs (Diesel Multiple Unit).
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #143 on: May 23, 2021, 10:43:23 pm »

In the brave new world of GBR (Great British Railways), I’m sure there will be many millions of pounds growing on trees for yet more new trains and associated extra costs.  But surely building a couple of dozen more Tornado’s would be a much better solution?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #144 on: May 23, 2021, 11:19:08 pm »

In the brave new world of GBR (Great British Railways), I’m sure there will be many millions of pounds growing on trees for yet more new trains and associated extra costs.  But surely building a couple of dozen more Tornado’s would be a much better solution?  Roll Eyes

<sarcasm>But won't the scrapping of class 43 power cars and class 365 trains and building of replacements with more rapid designed obsolescence help the economy by boosting employment (in train building)?  By choosing steam locomotives that need to run around their carriages, look at the infrastructure that need to be put back in too. And if we make the software nice and complicated, that employment can be all the greater - look at the 3 month closure to replace class 483 by 484 - extended to perhaps 8 months - that's almost 3 times more workdays!</sarcasm>
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #145 on: May 24, 2021, 09:52:46 am »

Regarding Wolmar, the Spectator, the Economist and the WhoOwnsIt guy: This is the way everything that might be considered a public service is delivered in the UK (United Kingdom), from emptying bins to mending roads and schools. Sometimes it's called franchising, sometimes contracts, tendering, or academies, but it's all variants on a service devised by government or authority and delivered by private enterprise, whether purely from profit or from tax money or something else. Yes, I know this is obvious, but it's so obvious that we don't seem to notice it; everything is details.
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #146 on: May 24, 2021, 09:54:15 am »

The name is pure Trainspotting. "Choose patriotism, choose nationalisation. Choose the future, choose the past. But we chose not to choose."

Well, time will tell soon enough how the details swing.
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« Reply #147 on: May 24, 2021, 11:23:10 am »

Regarding Wolmar, the Spectator, the Economist and the WhoOwnsIt guy: This is the way everything that might be considered a public service is delivered in the UK (United Kingdom), from emptying bins to mending roads and schools. Sometimes it's called franchising, sometimes contracts, tendering, or academies, but it's all variants on a service devised by government or authority and delivered by private enterprise, whether purely from profit or from tax money or something else. Yes, I know this is obvious, but it's so obvious that we don't seem to notice it; everything is details.

The name is pure trainspotting. "Choose patriotism, choose nationalisation. Choose the future, choose the past. But we chose not to choose."

Well, time will tell soon enough how the details swing.

Time will indeed tell, although there may be a case for some tweaking of the messaging if there is a risk of the WeOwnIt Woman being mistaken for a bloke  Grin

On a more serious note, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see WeOwnIt take a prominent role as this saga unfolds, given that it was created and is run by another iconic female public transport campaigner - Cat Hobbs.

Several members will recall how, in her role as FoSBR» (Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways - site) campaigns chief in the mid to late 2000s, Cat took a Severn Beach Line that was partially bustituted and had barely survived two recent closure attempts, and masterminded a campaign that won for it a vastly improved all-rail service that has proven so successful that improving it further is a top MetroWest priority.

She was also always very supportive and helpful to grahame and myself regarding our work with Save The Train and CANBER (Campaign Against the New Beeching Report) - a commitment that continued after she left FoSBR for a high profile role at Campaign for Better Transport - and I have nothing but fond memories of working alongside her.
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« Reply #148 on: May 24, 2021, 12:03:22 pm »

Regarding Wolmar, the Spectator, the Economist and the WhoOwnsIt guy: This is the way everything that might be considered a public service is delivered in the UK (United Kingdom), from emptying bins to mending roads and schools. Sometimes it's called franchising, sometimes contracts, tendering, or academies, but it's all variants on a service devised by government or authority and delivered by private enterprise, whether purely from profit or from tax money or something else. Yes, I know this is obvious, but it's so obvious that we don't seem to notice it; everything is details.

The name is pure trainspotting. "Choose patriotism, choose nationalisation. Choose the future, choose the past. But we chose not to choose."

Well, time will tell soon enough how the details swing.

Time will indeed tell, although there may be a case for some tweaking of the messaging if there is a risk of the WeOwnIt Woman being mistaken for a bloke  Grin
My apologies to her, the rest of WeOwnIt, and everyone reading. I tried to look for the name (of the organisation) in this thread but couldn't find it, and the search function isn't helping either, even with the correct name.
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« Reply #149 on: May 24, 2021, 12:26:58 pm »

Regarding Wolmar, the Spectator, the Economist and the WhoOwnsIt guy: This is the way everything that might be considered a public service is delivered in the UK (United Kingdom), from emptying bins to mending roads and schools. Sometimes it's called franchising, sometimes contracts, tendering, or academies, but it's all variants on a service devised by government or authority and delivered by private enterprise, whether purely from profit or from tax money or something else. Yes, I know this is obvious, but it's so obvious that we don't seem to notice it; everything is details.

The name is pure trainspotting. "Choose patriotism, choose nationalisation. Choose the future, choose the past. But we chose not to choose."

Well, time will tell soon enough how the details swing.

Time will indeed tell, although there may be a case for some tweaking of the messaging if there is a risk of the WeOwnIt Woman being mistaken for a bloke  Grin
My apologies to her, the rest of WeOwnIt, and everyone reading. I tried to look for the name (of the organisation) in this thread but couldn't find it, and the search function isn't helping either, even with the correct name.

Fair enough - Yes, the original WeOwnIt video that grahame posted is back a page on this busy thread now. Here is Pascale Robinson saying her piece for those who missed it:

View from "We Own It" ...


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