Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 15:35 29 Mar 2024
* Delays at Dover as millions begin Easter getaway
* A view from inside ship that hit Baltimore bridge
- Attempted murder charge after man stabbed on train
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
29th Mar (1913)
Foundation of National Union or Railwaymen (*)

Train RunningCancelled
15:14 Swindon to Westbury
15:22 Newbury to Bedwyn
15:28 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington
15:50 Bedwyn to Newbury
15:54 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
16:15 Newbury to Bedwyn
16:23 Westbury to Swindon
16:55 Bedwyn to Newbury
17:24 Newbury to Bedwyn
17:36 Swindon to Westbury
18:04 Bedwyn to Newbury
18:26 Newbury to Bedwyn
18:37 Westbury to Swindon
18:55 Bedwyn to Newbury
19:02 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads
19:24 Newbury to Bedwyn
19:55 Bedwyn to Newbury
20:13 Swindon to Westbury
20:49 Newbury to Bedwyn
21:16 Westbury to Swindon
21:16 Bedwyn to Newbury
21:53 Newbury to Bedwyn
22:25 Bedwyn to Newbury
22:30 Swindon to Westbury
22:47 Newbury to Bedwyn
Short Run
13:10 Gloucester to Weymouth
13:42 Exeter St Davids to London Paddington
13:55 Paignton to London Paddington
14:36 London Paddington to Paignton
15:28 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare
15:42 Exeter St Davids to London Paddington
16:35 London Paddington to Plymouth
16:50 Plymouth to London Paddington
17:03 London Paddington to Penzance
17:36 London Paddington to Plymouth
18:03 London Paddington to Penzance
18:29 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington
18:36 London Paddington to Plymouth
19:04 Paignton to London Paddington
20:03 London Paddington to Plymouth
21:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
23:17 Bedwyn to Reading
Delayed
10:04 London Paddington to Penzance
10:20 Penzance to London Paddington
12:03 London Paddington to Penzance
12:15 Penzance to London Paddington
13:03 London Paddington to Plymouth
13:15 Plymouth to London Paddington
13:50 London Paddington to Great Malvern
14:03 London Paddington to Penzance
14:15 Penzance to London Paddington
15:03 London Paddington to Penzance
15:15 Plymouth to London Paddington
16:03 London Paddington to Penzance
16:15 Penzance to London Paddington
17:29 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington
etc
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 29, 2024, 15:41:03 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[211] 2024 - Service update and amendment log, Swindon <-> Westbury...
[66] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[49] Who needs a travel agent these days?
[36] Travel for free on the m2 metrobus - Bristol - 4,5,6 April 202...
[28] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[26] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
 
News: the Great Western Coffee Shop ... keeping you up to date with travel around the South West
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Station lighting fails at Paddington.  (Read 3693 times)
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« on: January 09, 2019, 03:12:30 »

Media reports state complete failure of station lighting last night.
The only illumination was from the lighting in the many retail units.

Does not look like a general failure of the public electricity supply since said retail units still had power.

Have network rail not heard of standby generators ? Or a secondary electricity supply derived from the traction current? or even of dividing station lighting between two different supplies on different substations ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46804914
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 18897



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2019, 03:15:19 »

Have network rail not heard of standby generators? Or a secondary electricity supply derived from the traction current? Or even of dividing station lighting between two different supplies on different substations?

Or putting 50p in the meter?
Logged

"Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for the rest of the day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

- Sir Terry Pratchett.
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7751



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2019, 05:05:30 »

Have network rail not heard of standby generators? Or a secondary electricity supply derived from the traction current? Or even of dividing station lighting between two different supplies on different substations?

Or putting 50p in the meter?

The railways always keep everyone in the dark when there are problems, perhaps this is a new strategy?  (........or was M Hopwood travelling through Paddington and wished to stay incognito?)
Logged
nickswift99
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 145


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2019, 08:29:04 »

Not quite on the same scale but a complete power failure at Goring & Streatley yesterday morning. Meant that the station was in complete darkness from 0300 until daylight, the emergency lighting having been completely depleted before any services started.

No announcement on JourneyCheck so anyone travelling in the down direction hoping to use the lifts would have been stranded.

I'm not sure how well DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) works in complete darkness on 165s and 387s but at least services were still stopping.
Logged
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7156


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2019, 09:33:23 »

Media reports state complete failure of station lighting last night.
The only illumination was from the lighting in the many retail units.

Does not look like a general failure of the public electricity supply since said retail units still had power.

Have network rail not heard of standby generators ? Or a secondary electricity supply derived from the traction current? or even of dividing station lighting between two different supplies on different substations ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46804914

From the reports, it sounds more like a switchgear failure within the station. For example, a breaker protecting part of the roof lighting trips, and can't be reset. Electricians come and prod it, and conclude it needs replacing, but that means removing power from its input - which feeds all the lights in the whole station. Thus the station is in darkness (reported as from 23:20) until the replacement is finished. There might be some scope for splitting circuits so a single failure leaves more lighting still on, though there are limits on that both as to remaining single points of failure and, I suspect, also from the need for safe working.

I would ask instead why there appears to be no emergency back-up lighting, even a limited amount of it, which would probably be best fitted on the platforms.
Logged
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4356


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2019, 10:40:53 »

Paddington station has its own high Voltage network derived from 3 dedicated in feeds from the DNO (Distribution Network Operator), the main substation is located outside the main train shed (I know where but will not say)

The main station lights are controlled by a substation under the booking office on platform 1 it also has a feed from an adjacent substation also there was a generator (not sure if this has been kept)

I used to be part of the station maintenance back in BR (British Rail(ways)) days

The weaknes with all electrical change over system is the change over panel 99.9% reliable but like all things there will be a once in 30 years a total failure built into the desing risk.
Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
Dispatch Box
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 433


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2019, 11:56:11 »

Paddington station has its own high Voltage network derived from 3 dedicated in feeds from the DNO (Distribution Network Operator), the main substation is located outside the main train shed (I know where but will not say)

The main station lights are controlled by a substation under the booking office on platform 1 it also has a feed from an adjacent substation also there was a generator (not sure if this has been kept)

I used to be part of the station maintenance back in BR (British Rail(ways)) days

The weaknes with all electrical change over system is the change over panel 99.9% reliable but like all things there will be a once in 30 years a total failure built into the design risk.


I always thought Paddington also had a backup system to power the lighting and platform screens, but I suspect this did not come in,as the fault was not outside in the Paddington area of London.

In Gloucester they were all in one box, that at one time the chargeman used to flick up all the breakers then the lights came on. Now are controlled from a shields box with a red light on. Some of the platform lights now have photocells.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 13:11:04 by Dispatch Box » Logged
patch38
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 653


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2019, 12:19:36 »

The weaknes with all electrical change over system is the change over panel 99.9% reliable but like all things there will be a once in 30 years a total failure built into the desing risk.

And it sometimes takes a really bizarre set of circumstances to stress test the system as the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) discovered in 2007 when they lost the entire national FM network (Radios 1 - 4) one Saturday afternoon. Even though there was a fully redundant backup distribution system in place nobody was aware that both signal paths ran through a single building at one point (which they shouldn't have done, but nobody had spotted it). The air conditioning failed in that building and took out both paths with the resulting loss of feed to the entire network of FM transmitters. Chaos for a while until the backup to the backup kicked in.

Nothing in this world is 100% reliable!
Logged
Dispatch Box
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 433


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2019, 13:13:40 »

Have network rail not heard of standby generators? Or a secondary electricity supply derived from the traction current? Or even of dividing station lighting between two different supplies on different substations?

Or putting 50p in the meter?


Or GWR (Great Western Railway) have not paid the bill.
Logged
ellendune
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4452


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2019, 13:48:48 »

Have network rail not heard of standby generators? Or a secondary electricity supply derived from the traction current? Or even of dividing station lighting between two different supplies on different substations?

Or putting 50p in the meter?


Or GWR (Great Western Railway) have not paid the bill.

Paddington is run by NR» (Network Rail - home page) so presumably GWR is not responsible for paying the bill. 
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2019, 16:23:22 »

Changeover controls are indeed themselves a potential point of failure, and should IMHO (in my humble opinion) be avoided when possible for lighting.

A better approach for large stations is to connect roughly alternate lamps to different supplies, without any changeover panel. Failure of either supply would still leave half the lights lit.

If changeover controls are needed, these should be duplicated with each set supplying half the lamps.

For example "odd numbered lamps" are normally supplied from substation #1 but change over to substation #2, if #1 fails
"even numbered lamps" are normally supplied from substation #3 but changeover to substation #4, if #3 fails. These two sets of changeover switchgear should be in different locations, to protect against fire or other accident affecting both.

Failure of any one supply leaves 100% lighting. Failure of either set of changeover switchgear leaves 50% lighting.

If BOTH sets of lights go out, for example due to a large scale external power cut, then a third set of lamps that are normally unlit should come into operation.
These would be of much reduced power, about 2% of normal lighting levels will suffice in an emergency, possibly less.
A rule of thumb for emergency lighting in large open plan areas is about one tenth of a watt per square meter.
That relatively modest loading may be obtained from a generator.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4356


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2019, 18:17:37 »

Changeover controls are indeed themselves a potential point of failure, and should IMHO (in my humble opinion) be avoided when possible for lighting.

A better approach for large stations is to connect roughly alternate lamps to different supplies, without any changeover panel. Failure of either supply would still leave half the lights lit.

If changeover controls are needed, these should be duplicated with each set supplying half the lamps.

For example "odd numbered lamps" are normally supplied from substation #1 but change over to substation #2, if #1 fails
"even numbered lamps" are normally supplied from substation #3 but changeover to substation #4, if #3 fails. These two sets of changeover switchgear should be in different locations, to protect against fire or other accident affecting both.

Failure of any one supply leaves 100% lighting. Failure of either set of changeover switchgear leaves 50% lighting.

If BOTH sets of lights go out, for example due to a large scale external power cut, then a third set of lamps that are normally unlit should come into operation.
These would be of much reduced power, about 2% of normal lighting levels will suffice in an emergency, possibly less.
A rule of thumb for emergency lighting in large open plan areas is about one tenth of a watt per square meter.
That relatively modest loading may be obtained from a generator.

The lighting at all major stations has emergency lighting, however this is only sufficient to allow the evacuation of the station, it is not sufficient to operate the train service.   The lighting switches at Paddington in the days I was involved in the maintenance, and these were manual switches which station staff turned on and off as required.  The switches were arranged such that the station staff naturally had alternate platform rows of lights fed from two different substations, the HV network was normally arranged such that these substations were fed as separately practical.

I don't know the current control system which is automatic with manual overrides, but I suspect it was designed with supply integrity in mind.  The integrity of the supply, control system or switchgear may have been compromised by accident or due a project or fault.
Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
bobm
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 9810



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2019, 20:10:25 »

Also had an effect on train running as the red lamps on the stop blocks at the head of platforms 1-8 failed.  That was solved by placing Bardic lamps on the buffers to guide trains in under caution.
Logged
lordgoata
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 415



View Profile
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2019, 10:43:08 »

I'm not sure how well DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) works in complete darkness on 165s and 387s but at least services were still stopping.

Ollie was frustrated, SSE(resolve) had said the power would be back on by 6am, but was still off at 645am when I left. He wanted to be on both platforms at once to assist the drivers in leaving.

Interestingly enough, the lift on platform 2/3 had its light still on, whilst everything else was off. I am surprised it was not closed for 'elf & safety, it was pretty sketchy wandering along the platforms in the pitch black!

PS. I tried to upload the photo I took (295KB) but when I click Post I just get a blank screen and nothing happens, will PM grahame
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2019, 10:48:09 »

Also had an effect on train running as the red lamps on the stop blocks at the head of platforms 1-8 failed.  That was solved by placing Bardic lamps on the buffers to guide trains in under caution.

Back in the good old days, such lamps would have been duplicated, one oil lamp in case of power failure, and one electric light in case the someone forgot to fill the oil lamp.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page