London to Slaithwaite Fare Question

[whole diary]

[oxviem]

Hello

So whilst I consider myself better than average with the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) fare system I have hit an interesting question. I want to travel from London to Slaithwaite in a few weeks time getting either the 6pm or 6.30pm train which go from Euston and Kings Cross repsectively. I've looked carefully online and can't appear to find tickets that would be valid by both routes. I can't at present guaretee to get the 6pm train but the 1hr earlier arrival makes it tempting. National Rail along with other ticketing sites all suggest that I can either go via one or the other and I can't get an 'any permitted' that would be both?

Thus I'm asking the hive mind of the forum - is there a ticket that would let me go via each route and indeed are they both permitted routes?

Many thanks for your insight.

[grahame]

See attachment - from BRFares.   Purely an online exercise, so I'm sure others can confirm or come up with a "yes, but".   There appear to be 'any permitted' and 'via Manchester' tickets and the 'any permitted should, surely to goodness, be valid east or west coast'.

If you are buying ahead and going to be choosing Euston or King's Cross at the last minute, then no certainly where you'll be passing through so no opportunity to look at any ticket splits ...

[rogerw]

Bearing in mind that the "any permitted" is cheaper than the "via Manchester" fare it would be worthwhile checking this against the routing guide as I suspect it does not include travelling via Manchester.

[WSW Frome]

Clearly the enquirer needs to check this carefully. However, even if he opts for the cheaper ticket I imagine the option exists to "excess" the ticket for the return journey via a more expensive (but still valid) route. The trick is to find a ticket office that will fully understand the process!

[Trowres]

Bearing in mind that the "any permitted" is cheaper than the "via Manchester" fare it would be worthwhile checking this against the routing guide as I suspect it does not include travelling via Manchester.

Clearly the enquirer needs to check this carefully. However, even if he opts for the cheaper ticket I imagine the option exists to "excess" the ticket for the return journey via a more expensive (but still valid) route. The trick is to find a ticket office that will fully understand the process!

I was foolish enough to take the bait 

The National Rail journey planner didn't seem to want to provide the "any permitted" fare for a journey via Manchester, so I checked up the valid routes using the online Routeing Guide. The new "Routeing Point Calculator" allows one to find the valid Routeing Point for Slaithwaite, and the only one valid is Huddersfield (HUD). Stalybridge (SYB) is not a valid Routeing Point because the London-SYB fare is higher than the London-SWT^▸ (South West Trains) fare.  Stalybridge not being a valid routeing point rules out going via Manchester.     But read on...

Looking at the Route Maps for valid routes from London to the HUD Routeing Point, one finds that Manchester/Stalybridge is a valid route. The only reason I can see why London-Manchester-Slaithwaite isn't permitted is because going that route to SWT means doubling-back from HUD, which is not allowed. 

So, you can buy an "any permitted" London-Terminals to Huddersfield ticket, and it's valid via Manchester.
And (for fares where there are no specific exclusions), you can break your journey at Slaithwaite. 

Just one snag   . If you end up going via Kings Cross and the East Coast, your Huddersfield ticket will not get you to Slaithwaite. You will need to get a distance excess...and as the London-Slaithwaite fare is (for most walk-up types) the same as the Huddersfield fare, the excess should be zero.

That is my analysis, without guarantee of correctness. I would be grateful if other forum members could check this; particularly the ability to ask for the zero-fare excess.

[grahame]

Easements ...

700768 - From the 20 May 2018 timetable change, customers travelling from Mossley and Slaithwaite to Greenfield may doubleback via Stalybridge. This easement applies in both directions

700769 - From 20 May 2018 timetable change journeys from Greenfield to Slaithwaite may doubleback via Huddersfield. This easement applies in both directions.

700790 - Journeys from Greenfield to Slaithwaite via Stalybridge (which is not a shortest route 700790 Local for the common routeing points shared by these local stations) will be permitted by this

Where it says "from" does it include trains travelling through (but not stopping at) the originating station?

[oxviem]

Dear all,

Many thanks for the replies and confirming my suspicions - both that I can use the any permitted and that this is a confusing request. I may well do the 'excess' route as that is perhaps the easiest to explain if challenged.

It does underline the problems with the online tools in that a permitted ticket is not shown as valid by any of the online planners.

Once again many thanks

[stuving]

Easements ...

700768 - From the 20 May 2018 timetable change, customers travelling from Mossley and Slaithwaite to Greenfield may doubleback via Stalybridge. This easement applies in both directions

700769 - From 20 May 2018 timetable change journeys from Greenfield to Slaithwaite may doubleback via Huddersfield. This easement applies in both directions.

700790 - Journeys from Greenfield to Slaithwaite via Stalybridge (which is not a shortest route 700790 Local for the common routeing points shared by these local stations) will be permitted by this

Where it says "from" does it include trains travelling through (but not stopping at) the originating station?

The definition for the corresponding data feed has these possibilities for the easement location modifier field (this as added to each location code cited in the easement):

LOCATION_MODIFIER
Indicates the type of location, as follows:
‘1’ = Applicable location.  The easement applies to journeys containing this location.
‘2’ = Origin.  The easement applies to journeys from this origin.
‘3’ = Destination.  The easement applies to journeys to this destination.
‘4’ = Via.  The easement applies to journeys via this location.
‘5’ = Exclude.  The easement applies to journeys which exclude this location.
‘6’ = Doubleback Point.  This location is the station to which a doubleback is allowed for doubleback easements. NOTE: There will also be an easement location record with LOCATION_MODIFIER set to 4 (Via) for the same location (for backwards compatibility).

Now, the question is how these terms map onto the "from" and "to" used in the text. They look more specific - at least origin and destination do -but what does "a journey containing this location" mean?