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Author Topic: Rail Delivery Group's Fair Fare consultation - outcome  (Read 18640 times)
JayMac
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« Reply #45 on: June 05, 2019, 15:54:04 »

I've found my first fares anomaly from my new home village station, Templecombe.

Should I wish to make a day trip to Exeter, leaving on the 0925, the fare I'm expected to pay is the Off Peak Day Return at £27.70.

However, I can get an Off Peak Return to Tiverton Parkway (route: Via Exeter) for £25.30.

If were going to Exeter for an overnight stay and leaving Templecombe before 0900 (and/or returning before 0900) then the fare I'm expected to pay is the Anytime Return at £48.00.

An Anytime Return to Tiverton Parkway (route: Via Exeter) is £30.60. In fact that fare beats the Templecombe to Exeter Off Peak Return which is £31.50.

I know these anomalies have arisen due to who price the flows. For Templecombe to Exeter it's South Western Railway. For Templecombe to Tiverton Parkway its Great Western Railway.

And of course, the only 'fix' I'd like to see is one where the fares to Exeter become cheaper than those to Tiverton Parkway. Such a fix has revenue implications though, so best leave it be please, and I'll stick to buying tickets to Tiverton for trips to Exeter. Wink

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« Reply #46 on: June 05, 2019, 16:31:49 »

Is break of journey allowed on the Tiverton P fares?
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PhilWakely
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« Reply #47 on: June 05, 2019, 16:40:07 »

Yes, break of journey is allowed on those tickets.

Similarly, I feel for any TE travelling on the 2E12 (0600 Penzance to Exeter St Davids) service. Savvy pax travelling to Exeter from Plymouth, Totnes or Newton Abbot will know that....

From Plymouth:       SDR: PLY» (Plymouth - next trains)-IVY (£6.80) + CDR (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) IVY-EXD» (Exeter St Davids - next trains) with D&C R/C (£5.70) beats SDR PLY-EXD (£20.10);

From Ivybridge:       CDR with D&C R/C £5.70;

From Totnes:           SVR with D&C R/C £8.65 beats SDR (£12.60);

From Newton Abbot: SDR £9.10

So, savvy pax from Plymouth, Totnes and Newton Abbot are taking advantage of the Ivybridge anomaly.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 16:51:00 by PhilWakely » Logged
Robin Summerhill
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« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2019, 20:43:11 »

Quote from: grahame
Quote from: Robin Summerhill

... all of our ultra-complicated fares structure has been built up over time to encourage off peak demand and, if it is changed unwisely to be “fairer” it may well stifle demand.

That is probably why the TOCs (Train Operating Company) don’t really want to do anything about it, and the RDG(resolve) need to be very wary indeed with their recommendations, for there will be winners and losers. And the winners won’t be grateful enough to spend any more money, whilst the losers might stop using the trains.

In truth this whole issue ought to have been left in the “too difficult to do” file. We’ll see what happens in the end.

You are probably right in suggesting that a fairer system would cause significant problems ... however, time and again it's what the majority of people say they want.

From Rail Advent - headlines from a longer article

Quote
Fares must be prioritised… say passengers

Passengers are now saying that the government should prioritise a fares reform and enable it to change as soon as possible.

..This is according to an independent survey by Populus commissioned by the Rail Delivery Group.


* Only one in 10 (11%) feel the range of rail fares on offer always fits with their lifestyle and the way they want to travel, falling to just 5% of people who use the train for business.

* Six in 10 (60%) say rail fares always, often or sometimes feel too rigid so they have to fit their plans around them, rather than the other way around, which rises to two-thirds (67%) of part-time commuters and eight in 10 (80%) people who use the train for business.

* More than eight in 10 (85%) think it’s important that the fares system is updated to enable flexible workers to save money.

Graham’s post cut back slightly to save space

It is all very well saying “it’s what people want” but there is an old saying: “Be careful what you wish for.” Ancient and modern history is littered with examples of people thinking they want something and then not being happy with what they’ve asked for when they get it:

After a number of years of Civil War our ancestors got rid of the Monarchy in 1649. They liked the result so much they crowned another King 11 years later.

Of more relevance to this matter might be the saga of The Community Charge/ Poll Tax. Nobody liked the rates and wanted a “fairer” system (which in my experience from the time really meant they thought they were paying too much in rates, and they fell into the age old problem of confusing the definitions of “fairness” and “self interest”) After they had experience of the “fairer” system they wanted a variation on the old system reintroduced…

As we all know, polls can be significantly skewed one way or the other depending on how the question is framed, and some of these results purport to so strongly favour remarkably vague statements that I would be intrigued to know what these people were actually asked and in what context.

* “Only one in 10 (11%) feel the range of rail fares on offer always fits with their lifestyle and the way they want to travel, falling to just 5% of people who use the train for business.”

What exactly does this mean? How can a range of rail fares fit in with an individual’s lifestyle, when all of our lifestyles differ. Whose lifestyle is going to matter here, and whose isn’t? Perhaps there are wiser folk around than me, but to me this statement appears absolutely meaningless.

* Six in 10 (60%) say rail fares always, often or sometimes feel too rigid so they have to fit their plans around them, rather than the other way around, which rises to two-thirds (67%) of part-time commuters and eight in 10 (80%) people who use the train for business.”

Presumably this “rigidity” has something to do with peak rate travel? I’m not quite sure what else it can mean because outside of the peaks there is very little in the way of rigidity, with anytime, off peak and advance tickets available for the majority of travelling options. And yes, the cheaper the ticket the more restrictions there will be, whether that be not using off peak tickets at peak times, or making sure you are on the correct train with their advance ticket. Perhaps someone else can come up with another explanation of what this statement means, but to me its looking like “we want advance rate fares on peak rate services and it’s unfair if we can’t have them.”

* “More than eight in 10 (85%) think it’s important that the fares system is updated to enable flexible workers to save money.

Or in other words (as I read it) “we don’t want to pay peak rate fares and we want cheaper railway tickets.” Or, in some cases, “its not fair that I have to pay £100 for my peak return to Paddington when other people only pay £20 with an advance ticket, so we should both pay the same.

So I think we’re getting the gist of the public’s mood. Once again conflating the definitions of fairness and self-interest, as with the Poll Tax of old, everybody thinks their fares are too high and they want them reduced so that all rail fares are “fair.” Or perhaps "those scroungers who always travel advance should be made to pay more so that I can pay less.”

Well I can see a fundamental flaw in that reasoning, and I can see a Poll Tax on Wheels coming if we're not careful...
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broadgage
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« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2019, 13:09:54 »

I have long felt that a greatly simplified fares system would be preferable, with only 3 different fares payable in each class of travel, for each journey.
I see no merit in punitively high fares for last minute travel on a lightly loaded service.
Neither do I see any merit in offering discounted advance tickets for services that are known to be overcrowded.

If these proposals are considered too radical, then perhaps a start could be made by reducing the number of "booked train only" tickets, and offering instead discounted tickets valid on ANY off peak train.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Robin Summerhill
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« Reply #50 on: June 07, 2019, 16:28:19 »

Quote from: broadgage
I have long felt that a greatly simplified fares system would be preferable, with only 3 different fares payable in each class of travel, for each journey.
I see no merit in punitively high fares for last minute travel on a lightly loaded service.
Neither do I see any merit in offering discounted advance tickets for services that are known to be overcrowded.

If these proposals are considered too radical, then perhaps a start could be made by reducing the number of "booked train only" tickets, and offering instead discounted tickets valid on ANY off peak train.

Apologies if I've got hold of the wrong end of the stick, but it appears that you are proposing what we've already got Smiley

We already have three (or possibly four) different fares payable in each class of travel -anytime, off peak and advance, with super off peak available in some cases.

If by punitively high fares for last-minute travel you mean anytime tickets, then these are no more punitive for last-minute travellers than they are for anybody else. During off peak periods no-one is forced to buy an anytime ticket when an off peak is valid for their journey. There may be some lightly-loaded peak hour services out there, but I would imagine that they are few and far between (happy o be correceted by people who use peak hour trains more often than I do), so I'm not sure how a TOC (Train Operating Company) could practically manage a system that allowed, for example, off peak tickets to be used on peak hour trains when it turns out on the day that they are lightly loaded.

I am not aware of any instances where advance tickets are made available when trains are known in advance to be likely to be overcrowded, because the whole point of advance tickets is to get more  bums on seats on underused services. Certainly I have been on trains that were overcrowded when advance tickets have been sold (in advance of course), but the cases I have experienced have had special circumstances (eg cancelled previous train, short forming, unusually crowded trains earlier than expected on Fridays etc). Short of the TOCs being issued with crystal balls, I'm not sure how you would overcome that.

Finally, the number of advance tickets sold or not sold for any given train will not preclude ayd walk-up passenger using the train with a walk-up fare ticket, unless they are physically unable or in some way prevented from getting on. That is the whole point of walk up fares, be they anytime, off peak or super off peak.
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broadgage
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« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2019, 17:46:14 »

Discounted advance tickets were sold, and AFAIK (as far as I know) are still sold for the 18-03 and 19-03 departures from Paddington, services that are routinely overcrowded.
I recall a previous thread about gross overcrowding on Westbound GWR (Great Western Railway) services on Maunday Thursday, but discounted tickets were still sold for these trains.

Mid day trains from Taunton to Paddington are often lightly loaded, but a very high fare is payable for last minute travel.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Adrian
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« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2019, 19:54:23 »

* “More than eight in 10 (85%) think it’s important that the fares system is updated to enable flexible workers to save money.

Or in other words (as I read it) “we don’t want to pay peak rate fares and we want cheaper railway tickets.” Or, in some cases, “its not fair that I have to pay £100 for my peak return to Paddington when other people only pay £20 with an advance ticket, so we should both pay the same.

It's not just about peak rate fares.  There are also a lot of commuters who use the train 3 or 4 days a week and therefore can't take advantage of season ticket discounts.  And there are others who work night shift and so day returns don't suit them very well.
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Robin Summerhill
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« Reply #53 on: June 07, 2019, 20:03:46 »

Quote from: broadgage
Discounted advance tickets were sold, and AFAIK (as far as I know) are still sold for the 18-03 and 19-03 departures from Paddington, services that are routinely overcrowded.
I recall a previous thread about gross overcrowding on Westbound GWR (Great Western Railway) services on Maunday Thursday, but discounted tickets were still sold for these trains.

Mid day trains from Taunton to Paddington are often lightly loaded, but a very high fare is payable for last minute travel.


This is not particularly detailed research but I have raised National Rail Enquiries and put some options in to get some prices, to test what you have to say:

Taunton to Paddington return on 19/06/2019, leaving 0945 returns an off-peak price of £81.30, with return travel permissable on the 1803 and 1903 departure. No advance tickets were available for that journey.

A single Taunton to Paddington leaving at 1145 on the same day gives an advance price of £43.50, which actually gives very little discount on the off peak fare of £47.30. Its clearly a bad idea to have an off peak single with LT Travelcard because that whacks the price up to  £86.00  Grin An anytime single is £128.50 but you are of course under no obligation to buy one as an off peak single would be valid.

So, in summary, it appears that you are wrong in saying that advance tickets are available on the 1803 and 1903 departures from Paddington to Taunton.

Clearly your definition of "a very high fare" may differ from mine, but National Rail Enquiries give a fare of £47.30 for an off peak single from Taunton to Paddington which, as an off peak rather than advance ticket, you could buy in the last couple of minutes before your chosen train departs. I see no evidence of a premium being applied (as I expected I wouldn't, because that#s not how the fares system works)


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Robin Summerhill
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« Reply #54 on: June 07, 2019, 20:24:35 »

Quote from: Adrian
It's not just about peak rate fares.  There are also a lot of commuters who use the train 3 or 4 days a week and therefore can't take advantage of season ticket discounts.  And there are others who work night shift and so day returns don't suit them very well.

People working a week of nights could buy a 7 day season in exactly the same way as someone working a week of 9 to 5.

As regards part time workers, this would depend on what the season discount actually was. For example a weekly season Chippenham to Paddington is £250.70 whilst an anytime return is £178.00. Therefore buying a season and only going twice in a week would still be cheaper than buying two anytime returns.

On a Chippenham to Bath commute, a 7 day season is £30.20, whilst an anytime return is £7.30. In that case you would save money buying 3 or 4 anytime returns rather than a season. Another way of looking at that is that if you bought 5 anytime returns it would actually cost you £36.50, £6.30 more, so the season discount isn't a particularly generous one anyway, amounting to only £1.26 per trip.
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PhilWakely
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« Reply #55 on: June 07, 2019, 20:29:29 »

Quote from: broadgage
Discounted advance tickets were sold, and AFAIK (as far as I know) are still sold for the 18-03 and 19-03 departures from Paddington, services that are routinely overcrowded.
I recall a previous thread about gross overcrowding on Westbound GWR (Great Western Railway) services on Maunday Thursday, but discounted tickets were still sold for these trains.

Mid day trains from Taunton to Paddington are often lightly loaded, but a very high fare is payable for last minute travel.


This is not particularly detailed research but I have raised National Rail Enquiries and put some options in to get some prices, to test what you have to say:

Taunton to Paddington return on 19/06/2019, leaving 0945 returns an off-peak price of £81.30, with return travel permissable on the 1803 and 1903 departure. No advance tickets were available for that journey.

A single Taunton to Paddington leaving at 1145 on the same day gives an advance price of £43.50, which actually gives very little discount on the off peak fare of £47.30. Its clearly a bad idea to have an off peak single with LT Travelcard because that whacks the price up to  £86.00  Grin An anytime single is £128.50 but you are of course under no obligation to buy one as an off peak single would be valid.

So, in summary, it appears that you are wrong in saying that advance tickets are available on the 1803 and 1903 departures from Paddington to Taunton.

Clearly your definition of "a very high fare" may differ from mine, but National Rail Enquiries give a fare of £47.30 for an off peak single from Taunton to Paddington which, as an off peak rather than advance ticket, you could buy in the last couple of minutes before your chosen train departs. I see no evidence of a premium being applied (as I expected I wouldn't, because that#s not how the fares system works)

Looking at Friday 2nd August (the second weekend of the school holidays)..... Advance tickets are available on the 1803 PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains)-TAU» (Taunton - next trains) for £35.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 20:35:38 by PhilWakely » Logged
Reginald25
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« Reply #56 on: June 07, 2019, 20:39:46 »


As regards part time workers, this would depend on what the season discount actually was. For example a weekly season Chippenham to Paddington is £250.70 whilst an anytime return is £178.00. Therefore buying a season and only going twice in a week would still be cheaper than buying two anytime returns.

Actually more complicated if you take into account railcards. CHP to PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) with card is about £116 anytime return, whereas AFAIK (as far as I know) there is no railcard discount on a season.
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Robin Summerhill
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« Reply #57 on: June 07, 2019, 20:43:36 »

Quote from: PhilWakely

Looking at Friday 2nd August (the second weekend of the school holidays)..... Advance tickets are available on the 1803 PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains)-TAU» (Taunton - next trains) for £35.

Thanks Phil. Your research shows broadgage is not completely wrong, but probably shows that advance tickets on these trains are limited.

I have to say that I have an interest in these matters, but the last time I was actually involved in selling BR (British Rail(ways)) tickets to an unsuspecting public the job involved taking an Edmonson card out of the ticket rack and shoving it into a date stamp, so rather a long time ago  Grin

Advance tickets are billed as being available in limited quantities, but has anyone around here have any up to date first hand knowledge of what "limited quantities" actually means in practical day to day terms?
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Robin Summerhill
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« Reply #58 on: June 07, 2019, 20:49:05 »

Quote from: Reginald25
Actually more complicated if you take into account railcards. CHP to PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) with card is about £116 anytime return, whereas AFAIK (as far as I know) there is no railcard discount on a season.
I believe that you are right about there being no railcard discounts on seasons, which of course adds yet another variable into the fares discussion.

Does anybody still think that the Williams Review will succeed in having a seamless "Fair fares" system for all. If you o then perhaps you think he's the man who can sort ou Brexit, because that is  piece of cake compared to rail fares... Smiley
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grahame
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« Reply #59 on: June 07, 2019, 21:13:35 »


As regards part time workers, this would depend on what the season discount actually was. For example a weekly season Chippenham to Paddington is £250.70 whilst an anytime return is £178.00. Therefore buying a season and only going twice in a week would still be cheaper than buying two anytime returns.

Actually more complicated if you take into account railcards. CHP to PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) with card is about £116 anytime return, whereas AFAIK (as far as I know) there is no railcard discount on a season.

Indeed.   

Chippenham to London Anytime fare is unregulated and exceptionally high.  Season tickets are regulated.  Look at a comparison Chippenham to London, Evesham to London, Bournemouth to London to Bournemouth

CAUTION ... this table below is London to Bournemouth tickets not Bournemouth to London.  Prices can be dramatically different depending on which end you start at, even on any time tickets

-EveshamChippenhamBournemouth
7 day season£218.10£282.30£173.60
anytime return£83.00£178.00£61.60 *
ratio2.621.592.81
distance100 miles98 miles107 miles
anytime ppm41.5p90.8p28.8p
season ppm21.8p28.8p16.2p
off peak return£71.10£74.60£57.00
super off peak return£53.40£55.90£50.50 &

ppm = pence per mile. Assumes 5 round trips on a season
* - Anytime day return. No day returns available from Chippenham or Evesham
& - weekend day return

Edit to clarify that fares used were (in my error) London to Bournemouth not the other way round.  A post just down the thread shows the table updated to show Bournemouth to London prices - Grahame
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 22:30:38 by grahame » Logged

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