Train Graphic
Great Western Passengers' Forum
15.12.2019 - what changes?
Great Western Coffee Shop - [home] and [about]
Read about the forum [here].
Register and contribute [here] - it's free.
article index - [here]
 15/12/2019 - Santa Special - Melksham
15/12/2019 - GWR Timetable recast
16/12/2019 - Network Rail Surgery, BWT
24/12/2019 - No GWR trains, Paddington
25/12/2019 - No GWR trains (at all)
25/12/2019 - No train - Severn Tunnel
Random Image
Train Running @GWR Twitter Acronyms/Abbreviations Station Comparator Rail news GWR co. site Site Style 1 2 3 4 Chat on off
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
December 13, 2019, 04:33:25 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most liked recent subjects
[137] IETs into passenger service from 16 Oct 2017 and subsequent pe...
[78] General election - policies on Transport - what should we look...
[71] For 2020 ...
[66] Worcestershire Parkway Station project - ongoing discussion
[46] GWR Performance Figures
[46] Advent Quiz - 2019
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4
  Print  
Author Topic: World's largest electric bus order  (Read 7249 times)
eightonedee
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 497



View Profile
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2019, 10:23:22 pm »

Quote
Annoying we had it all before, and annoying that instead of re-installing it we just wait around for technology to become better and cheaper. Modern Britain thinks it's a world leader, yet it's miles behind with infrastructure. We can't even provide decent transport in major towns and cities! The private car wins hands down. When we do try change something we have to have our own backward way of doing it.

RG - we are not alone! I've just spent an informative quarter of an hour on Wikipedia cruising lists of (almost all former) trolleybus systems throughout the world. Only North Korea, Belarus, Lithuania and Latvia seem to have all systems left operating, Ukraine has most still operating as does Russia. I guess all these are genuine full OHL systems, rather than battery/OHL ones.

For much of the rest of the world it is a case of closures over a prolonged period, with one or two recent schemes started. perhaps it's time for a trolleybus revival.   
Logged
martyjon
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1831


View Profile
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2019, 08:46:12 am »

Nice half hour video of trolleybuses at the UK Trolleybus Museum ;-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRmllrVHvu0
Logged
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2391


View Profile
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2019, 09:07:10 am »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWfWnoCncU0

Took a while to find again as the script is in Polish.
Dziękuję (thank you).

A comment under the video says that whereas the Trollino 18 uses batteries to run off-wire, the Trollino 12 is a hybrid system using an Iveco internal combustion (presumably diesel) engine to power a generator.

Quote
Watching these videos frustrates me that we don't have anything as basic and simple as this form of quiet and emission free transport in the U.K. Annoying we had it all before, and annoying that instead of re-installing it we just wait around for technology to become better and cheaper. Modern Britain thinks it's a world leader, yet it's miles behind with infrastructure. We can't even provide decent transport in major towns and cities! The private car wins hands down. When we do try change something we have to have our own backward way of doing it.

Interestingly when a Reading trolleybus visited the town last year and was parked up in Broad Street, many British people had no idea what it was, or just thought it was an old bus. Many Europeans who stopped though knew exactly what the poles on the roof were for and were surprised to know that the town had trolleybuses in the first place and wondered why on earth they were removed.
Still, enjoy the video. Might have to travel there and have a ride on them one day.

Cheers
I think it's more a difference of attitude to infrastructure and funding rather than technological ability, and also it fluctuates over time in all places. As I mentioned earlier, Lublin's trolleybuses (and public transport generally) did get very run down at one stage.
Logged

Day return to Infinity, please.
Reading General
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 145


View Profile
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2019, 11:50:58 am »

Indeed. It seems to be anything to avoid overhead wires, even in our less attractive towns. I'm all for practicality myself, the benefits of the overhead road outweigh the possible unsightly look of it. It's not appropriate in particular places like Oxford, but there are plenty of places in the 100 000 to 200 000 region of population where it wouldn't be that noticeable, nor destroy the view of some of our treasured street scenes. Tramways have overhead, with one less wire, but the wires holding it are the same. Not sure why this is acceptable and trolleybus overhead isn't. At the closure of the company providing parts for the overhead in Britain, Reading Corporation predicted that their latest trolleybuses would get them as far as 1981, before a ministry of transport planned one way system was forced onto the town leading to the council to decide to close of the system in 1968 by one vote. I often think that if the system survived this we would probably still have it today, as the practical nature of Reading and it's people were very fond of their trolleybuses. I think we are out of the low point of public transport now, but in the modern world a group of bus routes slowly snaking through towns are no longer enough to entice people to make a choice. Railways and tramways will be chosen because of their fixed nature, but buses in urban areas don't really cut it, and I can't see battery powered versions making much difference to the use of them.

Interestingly they are not that bothered about overhead in some attractive European cities.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/alefilobus/31030769510
Here is a photo on flickr by Ale in Modena in Italy, where it's diesel buses that aren't allowed in the old town!

Cheers
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2941



View Profile
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2019, 03:08:35 pm »

With growing concerns about local air pollution in urban areas, and also about climate change, I foresee another advantage in adopting trolley buses.

Not only would passengers be transported with no pollution at the point of use and reduced total pollution, but the infrastructure could also be used for trucks and vans.

Once the overhead is installed, there is no reason why suitably equipped goods vehicles should not use it. An electric truck with say a 20 mile battery range, and unlimited range powered from the overhead would be ideal for urban deliveries, and can of course venture into side streets not wired.
The extra power used by refrigerated vehicles is easily supplied at low cost and zero local pollution.

Whilst such schemes may not be achieved just yet, they should IMO be planned for by requiring that all new trolleybuses and infrastructure should be interchangeable. Not unique to each area.

Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Celestial
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 342


View Profile
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2019, 04:21:02 pm »

With growing concerns about local air pollution in urban areas, and also about climate change, I foresee another advantage in adopting trolley buses.

Not only would passengers be transported with no pollution at the point of use and reduced total pollution, but the infrastructure could also be used for trucks and vans.

Once the overhead is installed, there is no reason why suitably equipped goods vehicles should not use it. An electric truck with say a 20 mile battery range, and unlimited range powered from the overhead would be ideal for urban deliveries, and can of course venture into side streets not wired.
The extra power used by refrigerated vehicles is easily supplied at low cost and zero local pollution.

Whilst such schemes may not be achieved just yet, they should IMO be planned for by requiring that all new trolleybuses and infrastructure should be interchangeable. Not unique to each area.


That seems a really good idea, but how would you ensure that other vehicles paid for the electricity they were using? I'm sure it could be done, but could be an added complication.
Logged
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4303


View Profile
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2019, 05:19:47 pm »

When I said (ages ago now) I thought trolleybuses should be able enwire or rewire themselves, I was thinking about something a lot less clunky than ones we've see in videos. It should be quite possible, with a little electronic brainpower and some modern sensors, for the booms to find their own wires and connect - and quickly, too. But for wider roads and busier town centres it might make sense to go a bit further, and put up a selection of + and - contact wires running parallel and let the buses pick whichever they like. A tiny reserve (more supercapacitor than battery) would allow switching wire in mid-stream, if you want.

Would it be worth doing, rather than just using more battery? Maybe, maybe not, but it would be worth a look. And as for the Goldilocks question (who's been eating MY current?) it is easy to detect someone is drawing power, and interrogate them or take pictures, so (combined with on-board meters) I don't see that as a problem.
Logged
martyjon
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1831


View Profile
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2019, 06:14:37 pm »

Google ;-

'Siemens e-highway Sweden'

and post your reaction on this forum.

I'm surprised no member has done it before.
Logged
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4303


View Profile
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2019, 06:49:19 pm »

Google ;-

'Siemens e-highway Sweden'

and post your reaction on this forum.

I'm surprised no member has done it before.

If you search for "ehighway" on this forum you'll find we have!
Logged
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2391


View Profile
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2019, 07:09:36 pm »

When I said (ages ago now) I thought trolleybuses should be able enwire or rewire themselves, I was thinking about something a lot less clunky than ones we've see in videos. It should be quite possible, with a little electronic brainpower and some modern sensors, for the booms to find their own wires and connect - and quickly, too. But for wider roads and busier town centres it might make sense to go a bit further, and put up a selection of + and - contact wires running parallel and let the buses pick whichever they like. A tiny reserve (more supercapacitor than battery) would allow switching wire in mid-stream, if you want.

Would it be worth doing, rather than just using more battery? Maybe, maybe not, but it would be worth a look. And as for the Goldilocks question (who's been eating MY current?) it is easy to detect someone is drawing power, and interrogate them or take pictures, so (combined with on-board meters) I don't see that as a problem.
Interesting idea but apart from allowing trolleybuses (and "trolleylorries" etc) to overtake each other, what advantages would it offer? There's usually enough reach in the poles to allow one set of wires for each direction serve all lanes of a dual-carriageway anyway. I'm not sure the extra infrastructure costs would be worth it.
Logged

Day return to Infinity, please.
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2941



View Profile
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2019, 07:16:10 pm »

Either fit each vehicle with a meter, or more radically Charge ALL goods vehicles say 20 a day to enter the relevant area. Electricity being included in this charge. So a diesel vehicle pays 20 simply to enter the area, but an electric vehicle can use the electricity for no extra cost.

Electricity is not expensive for this sort of use, the real expense is the capital cost of the infrastructure.
A large van or light truck might use on average 20Kw when moving and almost nothing when stopped for loading and unloading or for drivers breaks. If the vehicle spends 5 hours a day moving and another 5 hours not moving, then it uses about 100 Kwh a day. That would cost about 15, suggesting that a flat rate charge of say 20 would be reasonable.
If someone chooses to use a diesel vehicle they would still pay the 20 but derive no benefit therefrom, apart from being allowed to drive it in the area.

Only 100% battery vehicles would be exempt from the 20 charge, as they consume no current from the overhead, and emit no pollution at the point of use.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Reading General
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 145


View Profile
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2019, 07:31:29 pm »

Another point I considered yesterday while lamenting the swap of smooth hybrid motors on Reading's buses for plodding tractor engines, was that overhead means operators cannot change there mind on what powers there vehicles (it also means they cannot keep hiring them out every weekend and bringing in the old rubbish to cover). It means a commitment that private operators cannot get out of. Battery buses could be the next order for example, last for five years then the bus company decides that diesel or gas is the next option for a multitude of reasons. The overhead is long term commitment rather than the bus operators short term consideration.

Cheers
Logged
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2391


View Profile
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2019, 06:59:47 pm »

Might do, but then it doesn't seem to have prevented the removal of previous tram and trolley systems.
Logged

Day return to Infinity, please.
Reading General
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 145


View Profile
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2019, 07:20:34 am »

A valid point, but I'd like to think that we have learnt something from last time. Can you imagine the removal of railway overhead with changes in technology? Or the replacement of Edinburgh's trams with buses in the future because it's cheaper? Times have changed since the 1960's where accommodating the motor car was the priority, we know this isn't the way forward in urban areas (although many authorities are still held to ransom by it). We know that standardised equipment is available and systems don't have to have unique quirks like last time. I would hope that we know knee jerk reactions to cost savings on public transport with only a four or five year projection in mind is not how to do it (but bus operators and councils still don't seem to know this).

Cheers
Logged
Lee
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6583

He who laughs last hasn't got all the facts.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2019, 09:19:21 am »

It always depresses me using Gosport's Bus Rapid Transit route when i recall the hope of the birth of the Portsmouth-Gosport Supertram concept in my childhood, the years of project development through my coming of age, only to see the short-sightedness of politicians from central right through to local level kill off a scbeme that would have made a real, game-changing difference.
Logged

Currently muddling along the Guingamp-Carhaix line

http://twitter.com/research_gwchat
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page