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Author Topic: Open Access Application - London to Cardiff (28/03/2019)  (Read 18508 times)
SandTEngineer
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« on: March 28, 2019, 02:34:57 pm »

And now another one....
https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/40812/open-access-economic-equilibrium-test-oa-form-gut-2019-03-27.pdf

Must be something in the spring air Tongue
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2019, 02:57:29 pm »

By my reckoning that would mean 12-13 trains each off peak hour running on the main lines between Reading and Paddington.  16-17 between Airport Junction and Paddington.

4 x Bristol
2 x South Wales
1 x Open access
1 x South Cotswolds
2 x North Cotswolds/Oxford
1 x West of England express
1 x West of England semi-fast (every other hour)
1 x Bedwyn

Enough to make me very doubtful that it will gain approval.
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SandTEngineer
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« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2019, 03:08:27 pm »

Yes, II, a bit of a challenge.  If I remember correctly the signalling allows for a 3 minute headway on the MAIN LINES but that assumes all trains have consistent acceleration and braking and inbetween travel at a consistent non-stop speed.

The fly in the ointment is HEATHROW EXPRESS which probably uses up two paths for each trip (due to the turnout speeds at Stockley Junction).  You only need to watch an up HEATHROW EXPRESS being routed to the UP MAIN by the signalling ARS system and completely stuffing the UP MAIN services running on clear signals tail to nose at 125mph, back to Maidenhead.  Completely destroys the service.

Then there are the OXFORDS that stop at Slough and the 95mph BEDWYNS ( although that will be eased once they become IETs).

No room for any contingency.  Perhaps the new service could use the RELIEF lines.... Roll Eyes Tongue
« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 03:20:19 pm by SandTEngineer » Logged
IndustryInsider
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« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2019, 03:17:45 pm »

No room for any contingency.  Perhaps the new service could use the RELIEF lines.... Roll Eyes Tongue

Or if they're really desperate there's always the SLOW lines?  Tongue
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grahame
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« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2019, 04:40:37 pm »

There may be other capacity issues further west too ...
* Didcot (or Foxhall Junction) to Swindon
* Swindon to Royal Wootton Bassett
* Area though Bristol Parkway
* We were also told of capacity / timetabling issues between Patchway and Severn Tunnel Junction
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« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2019, 04:46:07 pm »

Indeed.  Not to mention platform availability at Cardiff and Paddington.  It would be nice to see the Class 91/Mk IV/DVT's continue in service as they've still got a lot of useful life in them, though compared with IETs they are painfully slow at accelerating, especially if they are staying at their current length of nine carriages, which will also likely cause capacity issues and difficulties pathing them on the GWML.
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Lee
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« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2019, 04:54:47 pm »

Potential SEWWEB Express?
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didcotdean
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« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2019, 05:32:10 pm »

Grand Union Trains. A company with one director, incorporated last year, with a share capital of £1.
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Richard Fairhurst
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« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2019, 05:46:30 pm »

That one director being serial open access-er Ian Yogurt Yeowart, previously behind Grand Central, Alliance Rail and associated enterprises.
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ray951
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« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2019, 09:04:00 pm »

There may be other capacity issues further west too ...
* Didcot (or Foxhall Junction) to Swindon
* Swindon to Royal Wootton Bassett
* Area though Bristol Parkway
* We were also told of capacity / timetabling issues between Patchway and Severn Tunnel Junction
They will also need to have replaced the bridge at Steventon or slowed down as per the 387's going to Swindon.
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Celestial
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« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2019, 05:16:21 pm »

That seems to be a direct raid on GWR revenue, which I thought was not allowed for Open Access applications?  I hardly think calls at STJ would be enough of a difference to persuade the regulator that it wasn't. I'm surprised it doesn't mention calling at the Cardiff East station once open. That would then be a bit different as I suspect GWR won't want to.

Also, I would have thought they would be carrying a lot of fresh air, particularly outside the peak times. Maybe if they cut down to 6 coaches they would have better acceleration and be less empty, but even that is a lot of seats to fill.
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Lee
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« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2019, 05:54:34 pm »

If they alternate the calls at Severn Tunnel Junction with calls at a relocated Pilning Westgate station built to SEWWEB specifications, then we will fill those seats, while providing the difference for the regulator, and generating revenue that no-one can say GWR have been desperate to capture thus far.

Dont bet against us - Remember we've done it before on services that we were told would carry fresh air if they were provided.
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« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2019, 11:11:17 am »

Couple of other points.

They seem to be  proposing using 91s and Mark4s presumably  off the East Coast. Where will they be maintained?

I am reliably informed that the 91s are the most sluggish accelerating locos on the system how will they compete with IETs?
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SandTEngineer
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« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2019, 11:50:54 am »

Couple of other points.

They seem to be  proposing using 91s and Mark4s presumably  off the East Coast. Where will they be maintained?

I am reliably informed that the 91s are the most sluggish accelerating locos on the system how will they compete with IETs?

They won't.  See my post way above how Heathrow Express consumes the train paths.  Anyway, reading on another forum, the Class 91s and MK4s are 'shot to pieces' and would need major rebuilds, and isn't that why they are being replaced by IETs?.......

Don't get me wrong, though.  I'm all for new services but they do need to be practicible in their application.  Concentrate on filling the gaps elsewhere first, before trying to compete with an already established market.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 11:57:01 am by SandTEngineer » Logged
stuving
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« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2019, 01:07:59 pm »

I am reliably informed that the 91s are the most sluggish accelerating locos on the system how will they compete with IETs?

That's rather unfair on the Class 91s themselves - you just try one without a heavy train hanging off its back (or front, in this case) end and see what it'll do. However, it is very much true of the IC225s and of electric LHCS in general. A big electric loco has both more power and less weight than a diesel one, and that limits its pulling power, however you measure it.

I'd not looked at 225s before, but assuming Wikipedia's numbers are even roughly right the effect is striking. My preferred figure of merit is the "weight fraction" - the fraction of the weight on powered axles. That, times the adhesion (friction coefficient) give you the maximum possible acceleration. Since adhesion is the same for all trains, it gives a direct comparison whatever number you assume - 0.1 is not unusual, and means that the following numbers are limiting accelerations in m/s2:
Cl 800: 0.6
HST: 0.33
IC225: 0.15

So sluggish? Yes. So what do you do? Not stop much (as intended for the ones kept on the ECML), and buy a good WSP (though they don't AFAICS have one for slip) or train your drivers to have a light touch. And keep your rails clean!

edit: to correct definition of figures
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 07:39:50 pm by stuving » Logged
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