Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 12:55 28 Mar 2024
* Man held over stabbing in front of train passengers
- How do I renew my UK passport and what is the 10-year rule?
- Easter travel warning as millions set to hit roads
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
28th Mar (1992)
MOD Kineton tour, branch line society (*)

Train RunningCancelled
11:16 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
11:23 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington
11:50 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
12:15 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
12:17 Westbury to Swindon
12:30 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare
13:00 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington
13:15 Swindon to Westbury
13:26 Weston-Super-Mare to London Paddington
13:30 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads
14:19 Westbury to Swindon
15:14 Swindon to Westbury
Short Run
08:03 London Paddington to Penzance
10:35 London Paddington to Exeter St Davids
10:55 Paignton to London Paddington
11:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
11:41 Bristol Temple Meads to Salisbury
11:48 London Paddington to Carmarthen
12:03 London Paddington to Penzance
12:12 Salisbury to Bristol Temple Meads
12:32 Exeter Central to Okehampton
12:42 Bristol Temple Meads to Salisbury
12:46 Avonmouth to Weston-Super-Mare
13:03 London Paddington to Plymouth
13:07 Salisbury to Bristol Temple Meads
13:10 Gloucester to Weymouth
13:26 Okehampton to Exeter Central
14:05 Salisbury to Bristol Temple Meads
16:19 Carmarthen to London Paddington
Delayed
09:37 London Paddington to Paignton
10:04 London Paddington to Penzance
10:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
11:29 Weymouth to Gloucester
11:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
12:27 Okehampton to Exeter Central
12:28 Plymouth to Gunnislake
12:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
14:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 28, 2024, 13:09:52 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[151] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[85] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[58] Return of the BRUTE?
[49] If not HS2 to Manchester, how will traffic be carried?
[46] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[36] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
 
News: the Great Western Coffee Shop ... keeping you up to date with travel around the South West
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
Author Topic: Campaigning For A More-Appropriate Train Design - HOW?  (Read 6150 times)
Rhydgaled
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1500


View Profile WWW
« on: April 07, 2019, 17:53:17 »

I am short of ideas and have been looking through Grahame's campaign tips (which is why I'm posting in this section of the forum, even though the campaign I'm looking for tips on is not for a new service). Tip number 1 seems to be the most relevant to me at the moment. I absolutely was "thrust into a "campaign"" several months ago, when I was outraged by Transport for Wales Rail Services' announcement of new trains for 'long distance and rural services'. It's not that new trains for these services aren't needed (quite the contrary, there are nowhere near enough class 175s and class 158s in the franchise's fleet to provide the level of services that should be aspired to). The cause of my outrage is the proposed design of the new trains.

I can answer the first question, what am I looking to achieve? That the new fleet of CAF Civity trains for the Wales & Borders franchise is built with single-width doors close to the vehicle ends (as on a class 158). This is surely not an impossible ask, since the class 397 Civity units for TransPennine Express also have such doors. Despite the shortage of rolling stock, the last thing we need is a large fleet of new DMUs (Diesel Multiple Unit) with a suburban door layout (double-width doors away from the vehicle ends).

And, the second part of the first question; why? Because the suburban door layout results in a lower quality train compared to regional-type stock in general and class 175s in particular. I feel that on the routes concerned the priority should be maximising quality rather than minimising dwell times. None of the routes concerned have a journey time of less than an hour (most are far more), and none of them have alternative fast services that passengers doing the full journey could use instead.

But the next question, what is the best way of going about it? I haven't a clue, it would seem. I have written quite a few e-mails, and received some replies, but that doesn't appear to be getting me anywhere. I could start an online petition, but since I don't do Facebook or Twitter how would I reach people to get them to sign it?
Logged

----------------------------
Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
Lee
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7519


GBR - The Emperor's New Rail Network


View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2019, 18:21:08 »

- First get your family and friends to sign it.

- Then compile a list of user groups, campaign groups, CRPs (Community Rail Partnership) etc and ask them to get their members and supporters to sign it, and put a link to the petition on their website/social media.

- Then compile a list of MPs (Member of Parliament), AMs, Councillors etc and ask them and their supporters to sign it, and put a link to the petition on their website/social media.

- Then compile a list of local printed and online media and ask them to ask their readers to sign it, and put a link to the petition on their website/social media.

Some will sign, some wont, but each signature will potentially be a lead to another, and they all count. Do it in this order, as each step will require you to prove more that you are capable of getting people to sign your petition.

You've chosen Wales and all those outside Wales who use Transport for Wales rail services, so youve potentially got a decent size signature pool to fish in.
Logged

Vous devez être impitoyable, parce que ces gens sont des salauds - https://looka.com/s/78722877
Celestial
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 674


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2019, 18:22:57 »

In this day and age, if you are not willing to engage people with social media then you are unlikely to be successful in engaging with enough of them by other means to make a difference.

As to the campaign itself, do you know whether the design is now cast in stone (or maybe that should be cast in steel, or aluminium)?   Or so far down the track that nobody would consider all the design and contractual rework necessary to make the change.

I  agree with you that a suburban door layout makes for a less appealing passenger environment, but I'm not sure I think its something to be outraged about.  I'd be more concerned about the quality of seating to be used if I'm honest, thinking about recent new stock I've been on.  


Logged
bobm
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 9809



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2019, 20:23:37 »

- First get your family and friends to sign it.

Snip ...

Can only endorse that - he knows what he’s talking about. 
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40690



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2019, 05:11:30 »

I was involved with a petition in the early days of such things and it certainly got noticed. From that out-of-date experience, were I setting one up today I would look to ...
1. Have it as something that as wide and audience as possible can identify with and agree
2. Keep it simple so that people undertsand it
3. Have emotional appeal (wow factor) / clearly righting a wrong
4. Avoid contravesial bits that put people off
5. Have a wide geographic spread
6. Be clearly achievable
7. Have an excellent and active backup site / presence with punchy URL
8. Get any famous names to back you / see if they will be open in publicity
9. Avoid competing with another similar petition
10. Consider negative effect on campaign if failed to gather signatures
11. Set realistic (perhaps [initiallly] personal targets
12. Exhibit passion and committment

I am short of ideas and have been looking through Grahame's campaign tips ....

Thank you ... they have somewhat fizzled over the last fortnight, haven't they?   There has been an awful lot going on (a few of you will be aware of one or two things in addition to 'rail') and my documentation of thoughts and ideas for campaigning are important to me for personal fulfilment, perhaps useful to others, but frankly not urgent. And on that basis I ask to be forgiven gaps.   If you don't like the gaps I will give you a full refund of the ... nothing ... that you pay for the tips  Grin Grin

Bonus tip - always provide a link to the thing you're talking about.  http://www.passenger.chat/better/day.html ... not sure if that's a campaigning tip or not, but campaigning is about influencing life and people, and it's certainly a planned influencer to make it easy for people to follow you!

« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 05:52:03 by grahame » Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
CyclingSid
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1918


Hockley viaduct


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2019, 07:59:19 »

My first thought on reading the heading was appropriate for who? The 158 style seems more difficult if the service is very busy (rammed?), as I am sure experience on the service that runs from Southampton to Salisbury (and beyond) shows. Also not very bike friendly (but you would expect me to say that). Neither of these might be a problem in Wales.

As they say a picture speaks a thousand words, I had to look on Wikipedia to check what a 158 looked like.
Logged
jamestheredengine
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 301


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2019, 08:42:47 »

To me the bigger problem is the specification of 51 2-car and 26 3-car units. Seeing as the 3-car 175s are barely adequate and the 2-car ones get horribly overcrowded, to accommodate traffic growth the order should be for 4- or 5-car sets. There is certainly no point in ordering 2-car units.
Logged

grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40690



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2019, 09:15:46 »

Don't get too technical ... here's something that a lot of people might sign

Quote
"Long distance trains for long distance routes. Local trains for local journeys"

Please, Mr TfW, when you buy or refurbish trains for use in Wales and the borders, specify facilities that are right for the length of the journey that people make on them, and for the number of passengers you expect to carry.

Please choose trains with plenty of comfortable seats for journeys of over an hour.  And choose trains with plenty of doors (which would mean fewer, and perhaps tighter, seats) where large numbers of passengers are getting off and on every few minutes.

With links below to "what does this mean?", "technical stuff" and "why are we even having to ask you?"

Edit to add note about links
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 09:33:08 by grahame » Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 12334


View Profile Email
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2019, 11:42:03 »

You might also contact Railfuture Wales - they'll likely know how far down the design route TfW have got & whether, therefore, your campaign might get somewhere, or it's too late....
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2019, 12:36:51 »

No harm in campaigning for more suitable trains, but I am sorry to say that I am not very hopeful that you will succeed.

In recent years those in charge of specifying rolling stock have moved away from "what improvements can we make" and towards "what downgrades can we get away with"

There also seems to be a view of "you are lucky to get a train, stop moaning about the design!"

There also seems to be a policy of ordering short multiple units rather than trains long enough to meet present and reasonably expected demand.
On a route where two car units are very inadequate, and 3 car units somewhat inadequate, it seems that future trains should be at least 5 car, and that 6 car should be considered.
Not likely to happen though, "lets order some more 2 car and 3 car units"

And yes I know that they can run in multiple, but previous experience suggests that if the TOC (Train Operating Company) has available shorter trains, that single unit operation will feature regularly.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Celestial
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 674


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2019, 11:30:29 »

To me the bigger problem is the specification of 51 2-car and 26 3-car units. Seeing as the 3-car 175s are barely adequate and the 2-car ones get horribly overcrowded, to accommodate traffic growth the order should be for 4- or 5-car sets. There is certainly no point in ordering 2-car units.

I seem to recall the proposal is to have 5 cars between Swansea and Manchester, but only 2 (or is it 3?) west of Swansea. If that is what happens then it would seem to be sensible and avoid carting lots of fresh air deep into West Wales.  The good news is that overall there is a big increase in the total number of cars, so we can be reasonably optimistic that overcrowding will be reduced one way or another.
Logged
jamestheredengine
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 301


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2019, 12:25:30 »

To me the bigger problem is the specification of 51 2-car and 26 3-car units. Seeing as the 3-car 175s are barely adequate and the 2-car ones get horribly overcrowded, to accommodate traffic growth the order should be for 4- or 5-car sets. There is certainly no point in ordering 2-car units.

I seem to recall the proposal is to have 5 cars between Swansea and Manchester, but only 2 (or is it 3?) west of Swansea. If that is what happens then it would seem to be sensible and avoid carting lots of fresh air deep into West Wales.  The good news is that overall there is a big increase in the total number of cars, so we can be reasonably optimistic that overcrowding will be reduced one way or another.

Sounds like a way to make the running into Swansea High Street and reversing even slower than it is now. It's ridiculous that Neath to Llanelli takes as long as Neath to Cardiff. (If only we could do a Plymouth North Road and open a station at Cwmbwrla...)
Logged

grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40690



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2019, 12:37:34 »

Sounds like a way to make the running into Swansea High Street and reversing even slower than it is now. It's ridiculous that Neath to Llanelli takes as long as Neath to Cardiff.

?

Neath to Llanelli - through trains from 33 to 35 minutes
Neath to Cardiff - through trains from 41 to 53 minutes
(checked at www.gwr.com  around lunch time tomorrow)

Agreed Neath to Llanelli can take longer if (for example) you change trains at Swansea.

I would accept that keeping dwell time in the Swansea area for through east to west Wales passengers makes sense - but is the specific Neath to Llanelli passenger flow a significant one in itself?
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
Rhydgaled
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1500


View Profile WWW
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2019, 21:25:51 »

Thank you all for your supportive comments.

In this day and age, if you are not willing to engage people with social media then you are unlikely to be successful in engaging with enough of them by other means to make a difference.
It's not that I'm unwilling to talk to people on social media about the campaign; it's just that I wouldn't know how to use it effectively to reach people. I've just tried to sign up for Twitter; I hope it goes well.

do you know whether the design is now cast in stone (or maybe that should be cast in steel, or aluminium)?   Or so far down the track that nobody would consider all the design and contractual rework necessary to make the change.
Good question. The new fleet is a long way from being cast in metal as far as I am aware. If I recall correctly, intended service entry is spread from 2022 to 2024 and I believe the Newport factory where they will be built/assembled will be doing the class 196 fleet for West Midlands Trains first. My best guess (and it's sheer guesswork) is that the earliest construction of the units for Wales & Borders could start is sometime in 2020, allowing for testing in 2021. Other than physically cutting steel/aluminium I've no idea what constitutes the point of no return for a new train design.

I  agree with you that a suburban door layout makes for a less appealing passenger environment, but I'm not sure I think its something to be outraged about.  I'd be more concerned about the quality of seating to be used if I'm honest, thinking about recent new stock I've been on.
I agree that the seats are an important issue too. I did raise a number of issues in my e-mails to Transport for Wales, of which the seats were one. On the seats, there was mention of "future consultation around the details of certain aspects of the design.  However, the exact nature of this is not yet confirmed". Could that be a variation on the 'long grass' issue, saying there will be a chance to have a say later in the hope that I then miss that chance? However they are seemingly unwilling to make changes to the "bodyshell of the trains, including the positions of the doors". I therefore focused my question here on this matter, as the one which my current method (e-mails) appear to be having least effect.

Clearly it would have been better to have secured a suitable bodyshell at an earlier date... Which is why I spent many hours responding to various consultations on the franchise before it was relet (and got very stressed in the runup to the deadlines) in an effort to get the Welsh Government to put this in the specification. If I hadn't put all that effort in, only to be ignored, I might be meerly disapointed rather than 'outraged' (which is possibly too strong a word, but I am certainly at least a little angry).

10. Consider negative effect on campaign if failed to gather signatures
Concern about my ability to gather signatures is one reason I've not started a petition so far; I went directly to writing e-mails but that's clearly not working so what other options are there?

I was involved with a petition in the early days of such things and it certainly got noticed. From that out-of-date experience, were I setting one up today I would look to ...
1. Have it as something that as wide and audience as possible can identify with and agree
2. Keep it simple so that people undertsand it
3. Have emotional appeal (wow factor) / clearly righting a wrong
4. Avoid contravesial bits that put people off
5. Have a wide geographic spread
6. Be clearly achievable
7. Have an excellent and active backup site / presence with punchy URL
8. Get any famous names to back you / see if they will be open in publicity
9. Avoid competing with another similar petition

11. Set realistic (perhaps [initiallly] personal targets
12. Exhibit passion and committment
As for constructing a petition, I think this campaign can comply with items 1, 3, 4, 5 and 9. I think I have the passion, but not sure about my ability to exhibit it. However, in trying to express 1 and 3 . On item 6, I can point to the class 397 which comes from the same product family but has single-width doors at the vehicle ends. Not sure if that makes it "clearly achievable", but perhaps more-achievable than an Electrostar or Turbostar with single-width doors would have been.

Here's the beginings of a first draft:
We, the undersigned, call on XXXXXXXX to reverse the planned downgrade of rolling stock for long-distance services across for the Wales & Borders franchise. A fleet of new CAF Civity trains are planned for these services, however the proposed design is of inferior quality compared to the existing long-distance units they are intended to replace. This must be corrected; in no respect should the new fleet be of a lower quality to the existing fleet.

Areas where the new trains, as currently proposed, fall short of the high standard passengers expect including the following:

That probably needs more emphasis on the wrong that needs righting, and the next bit was so bad (read: a bit technical and far from simple) that I've not posted it here. Also obvious from this is that I don't know who I should be aiming the petition at; Ken Skates (Welsh Government transport minister), the Welsh Government as a whole, Transport for Wales (the government-owned body) or Transport for Wales Rail Services (who I believe are the private company actually running the trains). Or is this actually a ROSCO» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about) (rolling stock leasing company) decision?

My first thought on reading the heading was appropriate for who? The 158 style seems more difficult if the service is very busy (rammed?), as I am sure experience on the service that runs from Southampton to Salisbury (and beyond) shows. Also not very bike friendly (but you would expect me to say that). Neither of these might be a problem in Wales.
More-appropriate for the 'long-distance and rural' services these units are intended to work. As you say, wider doors are better for busy commuter services (if only because you have more room for standees before it becomes absolutely rammed) but on long-distance services the train should be long enough to avoid this (and this is one of the things addressed in the replies I've had from Transport for Wales; they claim they have ordered enough trains to eliminate the need to stand). If nobody has to stand, then the extra space around the doors is wasted-space for the entire time that the train is in motion. I would have thought that the class 158 layout (with the doors slightly away from the vehicle ends) could potentially allow an increase in bicycle spaces; on a 158 the small toilet is on one side of the aisle with bikes on the other side. The other coach on a 2-car 158 has the larger (wheelchair-accessible) toilet, so no room for bikes, but presumably on a 3-car unit there are another 2 or 3 of those bicycle areas in the centre coach.

To me the bigger problem is the specification of 51 2-car and 26 3-car units. Seeing as the 3-car 175s are barely adequate and the 2-car ones get horribly overcrowded, to accommodate traffic growth the order should be for 4- or 5-car sets. There is certainly no point in ordering 2-car units.
I'm not sure I completely agree. One of the routes the new units will be used on is the Cambrian Coast line; I'm not sure but I doubt the 2-car class 158s they currently have along there are filled very often. They do fill up in the summer sometimes I think but I wouldn't be too worried about a few 2-car units given that they have unit end gangways so that they can be coupled together to form a longer train. I would however be more-encouraged that the franchisee has done their sums right if there were more 3-car and fewer 2-car units in the order to allow more 5-car formations. The short class 175s are more of a problem because even if coupled together they are effectively two seperate trains; were it not for that I would be arguing for fewer new trains and the 175s to stay on but mostly running in pairs.

There also seems to be a policy of ordering short multiple units rather than trains long enough to meet present and reasonably expected demand.
On a route where two car units are very inadequate, and 3 car units somewhat inadequate, it seems that future trains should be at least 5 car, and that 6 car should be considered.
Not likely to happen though, "lets order some more 2 car and 3 car units"

And yes I know that they can run in multiple, but previous experience suggests that if the TOC (Train Operating Company) has available shorter trains, that single unit operation will feature regularly.
It's not quite like that on the Wales & Borders franchise. There's a fair bit of portion working planned; in addition to the current Cambrian line services (2 coaches each for Aberystwyth and Pwllheli, ensuring a 4-car train between Machynlleth and Birmingham) the Manchester - South Wales service is intended to split at Swansea and the Liverpool - Chester to extend to both Cardiff and Llandudno with a split at Chester, giving a longer train from Chester to Liverpool. That could perhaps do with 3-cars rather than 2 beyond Chester on at least one of those portions though.

Re. the comments on the merits or otherwise of the split at Swansea; that's a whole different campaign. Because of the long journey time, I feel that services might as well terminate at Swansea from both directions, with new express services from Carmarthen (calling at only Llanelli and Port Talbot) to maintain through links to Cardiff with no changes.

You might also contact Railfuture Wales - they'll likely know how far down the design route TfW have got & whether, therefore, your campaign might get somewhere, or it's too late....
I actually wrote to Rowland Pittard of Railfuture Wales for a second time a week ago asking for his comments, having not had a reply from my first e-mail a few weeks earlier. I've still not had a reply; is he still at Railfuture Wales?

- First get your family and friends to sign it.

- Then compile a list of user groups, campaign groups, CRPs (Community Rail Partnership) etc and ask them to get their members and supporters to sign it, and put a link to the petition on their website/social media.

- Then compile a list of MPs (Member of Parliament), AMs, Councillors etc and ask them and their supporters to sign it, and put a link to the petition on their website/social media.

- Then compile a list of local printed and online media and ask them to ask their readers to sign it, and put a link to the petition on their website/social media.

Some will sign, some wont, but each signature will potentially be a lead to another, and they all count. Do it in this order, as each step will require you to prove more that you are capable of getting people to sign your petition.
Ah, is that where I went wrong with the e-mails, going to the AMs first and user groups only when that didn't seem to get me anywhere? I will try to keep this in mind if I do manage to write a suitable petition text.
Logged

----------------------------
Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
Celestial
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 674


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2019, 22:46:15 »

Clearly it would have been better to have secured a suitable bodyshell at an earlier date... Which is why I spent many hours responding to various consultations on the franchise before it was relet (and got very stressed in the runup to the deadlines) in an effort to get the Welsh Government to put this in the specification. If I hadn't put all that effort in, only to be ignored, I might be meerly disapointed rather than 'outraged' (which is possibly too strong a word, but I am certainly at least a little angry).
I think you need to be realistic. Just because you give input to a consultation doesn't mean that you have a right for your comments/preferences to be acted upon (which the "outrage" seems to suggest). 

If you were the only person (or even one of a handful) to raise the issue then I think quite reasonably the reviewers would decide it's not an issue that is of great importance to people.  And of course it may be that more people responding said they wanted 1/3 2/3 doors (highly unlikely, but the point is that in a consultation your view may not be in the majority).  Or maybe it was considered and advisors pointed out that the advantages of mid carriage doors were x, y, and z, so on balance it was the best design to go for.

One final thought - are you sure that this layout is definitely proposed, and that TfW or the manufacturer haven't just used a stock image of a new train, whilst the detail is still to be finalised? 
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1] 2
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page