Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 19:35 28 Mar 2024
* Easter getaways hit by travel disruption
- How do I renew my UK passport and what is the 10-year rule?
- Passengers pleaded with knifeman during attack
- Family anger at sentence on fatal crash driver, 19
- Easter travel warning as millions set to hit roads
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
28th Mar (1992)
MOD Kineton tour, branch line society (*)

Train RunningCancelled
17:54 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
17:57 London Paddington to Worcester Foregate Street
18:08 London Paddington to Frome
18:36 London Paddington to Plymouth
19:23 Reading to Gatwick Airport
19:24 Newbury to Bedwyn
19:33 London Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill
19:35 Exeter St Davids to London Paddington
19:55 Bedwyn to Newbury
20:13 Swindon to Westbury
20:16 Frome to Westbury
20:49 Newbury to Bedwyn
20:56 Worcester Foregate Street to London Paddington
21:16 Bedwyn to Newbury
21:53 Newbury to Bedwyn
22:25 Bedwyn to Newbury
22:47 Newbury to Bedwyn
Short Run
15:03 London Paddington to Penzance
16:03 London Paddington to Penzance
16:19 Carmarthen to London Paddington
16:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
16:35 London Paddington to Plymouth
16:50 Plymouth to London Paddington
17:03 London Paddington to Penzance
17:30 London Paddington to Taunton
17:36 London Paddington to Plymouth
17:50 Gloucester to Salisbury
18:03 London Paddington to Penzance
18:19 Reading to Gatwick Airport
18:29 Gatwick Airport to Reading
18:54 Reading to Gatwick Airport
18:59 Gatwick Airport to Reading
19:04 Paignton to London Paddington
19:06 London Paddington to Bedwyn
19:13 Salisbury to Bristol Temple Meads
19:29 Gatwick Airport to Reading
20:03 London Paddington to Plymouth
20:42 Bedwyn to London Paddington
21:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
Delayed
13:59 Cardiff Central to Penzance
16:15 Penzance to London Paddington
Additional 17:17 Exeter St Davids to Penzance
Additional 17:26 Castle Cary to Penzance
19:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
19:54 Reading to Gatwick Airport
19:59 Gatwick Airport to Reading
23:04 Reading to Bedwyn
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 28, 2024, 19:47:04 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[133] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[132] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[53] Return of the BRUTE?
[44] If not HS2 to Manchester, how will traffic be carried?
[41] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[32] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
 
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 [4]
  Print  
Author Topic: East Midlands, South Eastern & West Coast Franchise Updates April 2019  (Read 12798 times)
Cava
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 24



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2019, 09:31:16 »

I think I understand why taking on extra pension responsibility would be bad news for train operators like Stagecoach, but I am struggling to understand why it would be bad news for us, the passengers and taxpayers.

Could someone possibly explain the ins and outs of that for me - Sorry!
Logged

stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7156


View Profile
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2019, 10:00:04 »

Site contains correspondence ...

If you read those letters, it's hard to understand the argument - they don't seem to be talking about the same ITT (Invitation to Tender). But I think it's something like this:

  • TOCs (Train Operating Company) have always had to bear their share of any extra funding of their bit of the rail pension scheme (RPS), when a deficit needed repair.
  • The RPS is an unusual scheme, in that all funding - including deficit repair - and any excess to be repaid is split 60/40 with the employees (via their unions). In most sponsored schemes the company bears the whole liability for adequate funding, which is why the pension deficit/surplus appears in their balance sheet.
  • In a "normal" scheme, the deficit repair payments can be much larger than the contributions based on salaries paid. There isn't any way for such one-off payments to happen in the RPS. I imagine that the employees' side could never come up with a large "bung" to the RPS, and TOCs have come to rely on their maximum contribution being effectively capped by that.
  • What's changed is that the pensions regulator (TPR (The Pensions Regulator)) is now telling schemes and sponsors to repair deficits faster - in the past this was often done one a 20-year or longer timescale. They want this done to the RPS too, though note that the size of its deficit is not public information.
  • There are discussions still going on involving TPR, RPS trustees, unions, TOCs (via RDG(resolve)), and maybe DfT» (Department for Transport - about), about faster deficit repair than the current rules of RPS allow for. That might imply new rules (though that's a separate argument).
  • So I can only infer that TOCs are being asked to commit to paying whatever comes out of this negotiation, which is (as Stagecoach are saying) not within their control. It wouldn't be a real negotiation if it was, would it? (Though sponsoring companies do, in the end, generally get their way whatever a scheme's trustees say.)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 10:53:28 by stuving » Logged
Cava
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 24



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2019, 10:52:10 »

Thanks for doing that stuving, that's great. I hadn't considered a couple of points in there, and it is a lot clearer for me now.

So does that mean bidding for franchises on these terms is like rolling the dice, with operators like Abellio willing to gamble on the outcome of negotiations that could take years, and operators like Stagecoach not willing to risk it?
Logged

grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40690



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2019, 20:04:31 »

Now Arriva are joining Stagecoach in taking the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) to court.

From The Guardian

Quote
Chris Grayling’s embattled transport ministry faces a second legal challenge over the way the East Midlands rail franchise was awarded, from Arriva Rail, owned by Germany’s state-backed Deutsche Bahn.

Who pays for these legal challenges?
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
ellendune
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4452


View Profile
« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2019, 20:35:19 »

Who pays for these legal challenges?

Depends who wins!
Logged
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 18894



View Profile
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2019, 16:30:20 »

Abellio have today announced an order for 33x 5 car bi-mode Class 80x trains from Hitachi Rail for the new East Midlands franchise.

The trains will be assembled in Newton Aycliffe, County Durham, and enter service in 2022. They will replace the Class 222s and HSTs (High Speed Train) currently used on services between London St Pancras tand the East Midlands.

I think it's worth betting 50p that the 222s will end up with CrossCountry.

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/hitachi-wins-400-million-deal-for-east-midlands-railway-bi-mode-fleet
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 17:55:46 by bignosemac » Logged

"Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for the rest of the day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

- Sir Terry Pratchett.
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10095


View Profile
« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2019, 17:10:17 »

With rumours of a trolley and no buffet.  Perhaps unsurprising given similar maximum journey times on EMT» (East Midlands Trains - about) services as GWR (Great Western Railway) will have (excluding Cornwall).
Logged

To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 18894



View Profile
« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2019, 17:59:59 »

Should also allow Abellio East Midlands to reduce journey times moderately too. A whole fleet capable of 125mph rather than currently where the HSTs (High Speed Train) are limited to 110mph.

Abellio plan to introduce cascaded Class 360s, inherited from Greater Anglia and TfL» (Transport for London - about) Rail, on St Pancras-Corby services. This will free up Class 222s for longer distance services, allowing the HSTs to go off lease first.
Logged

"Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for the rest of the day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

- Sir Terry Pratchett.
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 18894



View Profile
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2019, 19:24:38 »

Sunday 18th August 2019 sees the start of Abellio's East Midlands Railway franchise. The new website address will be:

https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/
Logged

"Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for the rest of the day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

- Sir Terry Pratchett.
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #54 on: August 19, 2019, 13:52:19 »

Another batch of 5 car units replacing full length HSTs (High Speed Train), progress I know but still regrettable.
And whilst of course these MIGHT be better specified than the GWR (Great Western Railway) ones, it seems unlikely.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10095


View Profile
« Reply #55 on: August 19, 2019, 14:09:18 »

Four engines instead of three on them I believe?  Presumably due to more high speed running under diesel power than on the GWR (Great Western Railway) fleet.  Shorter length vehicles as well.
Logged

To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
CMRail
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 400


View Profile
« Reply #56 on: August 19, 2019, 15:27:33 »

33 trains replacing over 50? Some of which are 8 cars in length?

Have I read something wrong??
Logged
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7156


View Profile
« Reply #57 on: August 19, 2019, 16:14:19 »

33 trains replacing over 50? Some of which are 8 cars in length?

Have I read something wrong??

Probably - or someone's reading something not said by Abellio EMR» (East Midlands Railway, also known as EMT» (East Midlands Trains - about) (East Midlands Trains) - about). Their own "aren't we going to be wonderful" pitch said:
Quote
Replacement of the entire train fleet with more than 340 carriages. This includes 165 brand new bi-mode intercity carriages (33 trains) linking cities in the North and East Midlands to London St Pancras, and modern diesel trains improving East-West journeys

So we must be waiting for a further order of trains.

The fleet (as defined in the ITT (Invitation to Tender)) is 12 HSTs (High Speed Train), 27 222s (6 of which are 7-car), and 62 1- and 2-car units. The total number of vehicles is about 340.
Logged
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7156


View Profile
« Reply #58 on: August 19, 2019, 16:30:30 »

Four engines instead of three on them I believe?  Presumably due to more high speed running under diesel power than on the GWR (Great Western Railway) fleet.  Shorter length vehicles as well.

The ITT (Invitation to Tender) did specify the new fleet should match current timings*, which may be relevant (given there are some hills). With 10 m less train, it's hard to see where an extra engine goes (or even how the existing ones will fit). So far the best guess is to replace one of the transformers with a bigger one at the other end, and put the engine there. But that leaves loads of questions about what other bits go where (motors, converters, all those cables, etc.) and what major design changes need to happen.

But ... I've not seen anything saying the engines are exactly the same ones. And the ITT doesn't call for on-train catering at all -  not even as a promise for the beauty contest.

* In fact, it's not quite that. The ITT said:
5.9.4 ... bidders are required to provide newly-built rolling stock to operate intercity services on the Midland Main Line between London St Pancras and Sheffield/Nottingham in compliance with the applicable Train Service Requirement. This rolling stock must be capable of:
a) Operating in electric mode (to take advantage of electrification infrastructure where this exists);
b) Operating in another mode (including for the whole journey if necessary); and
c) Operating Class 222-timed services from the as-bid TSR1 and TSR2 on the Midland Main Line with no detriment to intermediate and end-to-end journey times.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 16:53:37 by stuving » Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 2 3 [4]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page