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Author Topic: Climate change protests to target overground?  (Read 7433 times)
johnneyw
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« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2019, 09:29:34 pm »

Getting wierder

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Many Crossrail engineers have been arrested after being mistaken for protestors attempting to disrupt transport and cause lengthy delays in London.

Reminds me of a student prank in Oxford in the 70s. Bunch of students tipped of police that some of their peers had taken rag week prank too far and were posing as council workers digging up a road. They had also tipped off the genuine council workers on the road that some students had taken things too far and were dressed as policemen and arresting road workers. Well, it was the 70s!

Edit: I was not there at the time being a little too young but it was from a friend of mine (and academy a load brighter) who was at St Peter's at the time.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 01:22:34 am by johnneyw » Logged

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Lee
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« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2019, 05:56:22 pm »

From the BBC:

Quote from: BBC
Extinction Rebellion has offered to "pause" the protests that have caused widespread disruption across central London for seven days.

The group said it would mark "a new phase of rebellion" to achieve "political aims".

A total of 831 people have been arrested during the climate change protests and 42 people charged.

Hundreds of officers from other forces have been sent to the capital to help the Metropolitan Police.

Extinction Rebellion said it hoped to negotiate with the Mayor of London and the Met over continuing its demonstrations at Old Palace Yard in Westminster and leaving other sites.

Farhana Yamin, from the group, said being able to "pause" the protests showed it was an "organised and a long-term political force to be reckoned with".

"Today marks a transition from week one, which focused on actions that were vision-holding but also caused mass disruption across many dimensions," she said.

"Week two marks a new phase of rebellion focused on negotiations where the focus will shift to our actual political demands."

However, another Extinction Rebellion organiser told the BBC not all campaigners agree with stopping the protests and that details of the group's next steps should not have been revealed.
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2019, 08:50:33 pm »

From the BBC:

Quote from: BBC
Extinction Rebellion has offered to "pause" the protests that have caused widespread disruption across central London for seven days.

The group said it would mark "a new phase of rebellion" to achieve "political aims".

A total of 831 people have been arrested during the climate change protests and 42 people charged.

Hundreds of officers from other forces have been sent to the capital to help the Metropolitan Police.

Extinction Rebellion said it hoped to negotiate with the Mayor of London and the Met over continuing its demonstrations at Old Palace Yard in Westminster and leaving other sites.

Farhana Yamin, from the group, said being able to "pause" the protests showed it was an "organised and a long-term political force to be reckoned with".

"Today marks a transition from week one, which focused on actions that were vision-holding but also caused mass disruption across many dimensions," she said.

"Week two marks a new phase of rebellion focused on negotiations where the focus will shift to our actual political demands."

However, another Extinction Rebellion organiser told the BBC not all campaigners agree with stopping the protests and that details of the group's next steps should not have been revealed.

The schools go back after the Easter break on Tuesday so the teenage revolutionaries should fade away.......but as for the rest of them.....don't these people have jobs to go to?
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bignosemac
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« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2019, 04:36:58 am »

I initially thought the protest aims were misguided. I'm not so sure now. More, much more, needs to be done to prevent the human race continuing on its path to mass extinction.

Peaceful civil disobedience and disruption has a long history of bringing about change. Civil rights, human rights, workers rights women's rights, LGBT rights. Ensuring the continuity of the human race is surely greater than all those. More power to the protesters elbow's I say. Meanwhile the media will focus on the disruption and not the message. And critics here and elsewhere will dismiss the protesters as clueless kids, crusties, feckless, luvvies... Having or not having a job to go to becomes a very minor concern when future generations may not have a habitable planet to live on. Preventing a mass extinction is THE priority.

Jonathan Pie says it better than me. (I've not embedded the video due to some strong language)

https://youtu.be/obFNcN0Zc7k

I await the brickbats... I await the "yeah but you drive a car" responses. I know I could and should do more. Some more carrot and maybe a little stick from the government would be a good place to start.
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PhilWakely
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« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2019, 08:43:51 am »

I initially thought the protest aims were misguided. I'm not so sure now. More, much more, needs to be done to prevent the human race continuing on its path to mass extinction.

Peaceful civil disobedience and disruption has a long history of bringing about change. Civil rights, human rights, workers rights women's rights, LGBT rights. Ensuring the continuity of the human race is surely greater than all those. More power to the protesters elbow's I say. Meanwhile the media will focus on the disruption and not the message. And critics here and elsewhere will dismiss the protesters as clueless kids, crusties, feckless, luvvies... Having or not having a job to go to becomes a very minor concern when future generations may not have a habitable planet to live on. Preventing a mass extinction is THE priority.

Jonathan Pie says it better than me. (I've not embedded the video due to some strong language)

https://youtu.be/obFNcN0Zc7k

I await the brickbats... I await the "yeah but you drive a car" responses. I know I could and should do more. Some more carrot and maybe a little stick from the government would be a good place to start.

I agree entirely. Unfortunately, with the political system in place at the moment..... where big multinational corporations can easily influence political decisions with the help of cash donations for this or that......... little will change. Just look at the number of petitions on various websites (eg 38degrees, etc) set up to fight issues such as the chemical companies lobbying to lift the ban on their pesticides that are killing off bees.

It is up to the 'little people' (i.e us!) to bring about change and to do it as peacefully as possible.
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #50 on: April 22, 2019, 09:12:50 am »

I initially thought the protest aims were misguided. I'm not so sure now. More, much more, needs to be done to prevent the human race continuing on its path to mass extinction.

Peaceful civil disobedience and disruption has a long history of bringing about change. Civil rights, human rights, workers rights women's rights, LGBT rights. Ensuring the continuity of the human race is surely greater than all those. More power to the protesters elbow's I say. Meanwhile the media will focus on the disruption and not the message. And critics here and elsewhere will dismiss the protesters as clueless kids, crusties, feckless, luvvies... Having or not having a job to go to becomes a very minor concern when future generations may not have a habitable planet to live on. Preventing a mass extinction is THE priority.

Jonathan Pie says it better than me. (I've not embedded the video due to some strong language)

https://youtu.be/obFNcN0Zc7k

I await the brickbats... I await the "yeah but you drive a car" responses. I know I could and should do more. Some more carrot and maybe a little stick from the government would be a good place to start.

I agree entirely. Unfortunately, with the political system in place at the moment..... where big multinational corporations can easily influence political decisions with the help of cash donations for this or that......... little will change. Just look at the number of petitions on various websites (eg 38degrees, etc) set up to fight issues such as the chemical companies lobbying to lift the ban on their pesticides that are killing off bees.

It is up to the 'little people' (i.e us!) to bring about change and to do it as peacefully as possible.

In the context of what the "little people" can do, a promising start would be to reduce demand for cheap electronics - do you really need that third device phone/tablet/laptop?

To upgrade that brand new smartphone to replace the one you upgraded to 18 months ago?

Satisfying the demand for cheap electronics is perhaps the most significant reason why China is the most polluting nation on the planet - higher CO2 than USA, India and Russia combined - in contrast the UK has the biggest reduction in C02 emissions in the G20, and we now generate 37% of our electricity via renewables, up from just 6% 9 years ago. We're actually doing pretty well.

In this respect, I think the protestors have missed a trick - if they targeted issues such as this, they may get their message across more effectively - facts are always better than emotions to convince the sceptical. Make it real to those concerned (ironically, when it comes to electronic devices, mostly the school age demographic who were clogging up London) - focus the protest on (for example) the Chinese Embassy. Don't clog up thoroughfares preventing the emergency services reaching their destination (at least 3 blue light ambulance attendances by one paramedic crew alone were delayed on Thursday in London) - that's self indulgent, needless, thoughtless and selfish.

No-one should be slagging off individuals for having one small car - they are generally much cleaner these days and most people legitimately need one to get around - ironically most of the additional pollution caused by open cast nickel mining is to meet the demand for hybrid/battery powered cars.

Everyone however is entitled to question the motivations of the likes of Emma Thompson - her 1st class 5,400 mile publicity grabbing flight equated to 3 tons of carbon - to attend a protest run by an organisation who contends that flights should be restricted to emergencies only - as these protests were allegedly worldwide, surely there was something more local? But hey, she plants trees  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 09:30:08 am by TaplowGreen » Logged
Timmer
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« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2019, 09:48:31 am »

As I have said before I respect peopleís right to protest but in a lawful and respectful of others who need to go about their business. This so called peaceful protest was well organised and designed to cause as much disruption and difficulties for the police as possible. Had they succeeded could also have bought chaos to Heathrow. I cannot and will not support people who feel they have a right to disrupt others going about their lawful business.

This country and its people are doing their bit to reduce carbon emissions and continue to do so. Until you get the big three, America, China and India to reduce theirs (little chance) you are whistling in the wind.
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mjones
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« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2019, 10:10:43 am »



This country and its people are doing their bit to reduce carbon emissions and continue to do so. Until you get the big three, America, China and India to reduce theirs (little chance) you are whistling in the wind.


No, this country really isn't doing its bit. If it were,  we wouldn't still have lots of huge gas guzzling 4x4s used for urban transport,  or homes still being built to poor efficiency standards,  or streets still so unfriendly to pedestrians and cyclists, or planning restrictions preventing growth in onshore windfarms and solar, etc etc.  We can't expect other countries to do better while we still fail to do as well as we could.  And we can't point the finger too hard at places like China when we have achieved much of our carbon reductions by offshoring our dirty manufacturing to them.
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Timmer
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« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2019, 10:14:58 am »



This country and its people are doing their bit to reduce carbon emissions and continue to do so. Until you get the big three, America, China and India to reduce theirs (little chance) you are whistling in the wind.


No, this country really isn't doing its bit. If it were,  we wouldn't still have lots of huge gas guzzling 4x4s used for urban transport,  or homes still being built to poor efficiency standards,  or streets still so unfriendly to pedestrians and cyclists, or planning restrictions preventing growth in onshore windfarms and solar, etc etc.  We can't expect other countries to do better while we still fail to do as well as we could.  And we can't point the finger too hard at places like China when we have achieved much of our carbon reductions by offshoring our dirty manufacturing to them.
We produce just 1% of the worlds carbon emissions, are well in target to meet our 80% reduction being at 50% already, what more do you want?

I agree with you about 4X4s. Why people outside of rural communities need them I donít know.
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mjones
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« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2019, 10:24:19 am »



We produce just 1% of the worlds carbon emissions, are well in target to meet our 80% reduction being at 50% already, what more do you want?

You have ignored the point that our imports involve emissions that are attributed to others. And that remaining 30% isn't going to be met unless we do more. So far we've done the easy stuff, replacing coal with natural gas and cutting heavy industry (offshoring it to others). Some of our supposed reduction is claimed from the use of biofuels that are not actually sustainable. That's not good enough, and there is plenty more that can be done without adversely affecting quality of life.
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2019, 11:54:39 am »

The "export" of carbon emissions and other forms of pollution, by manufacturing for rich countries' consumption being moved to places such as China,  goes hand in hand with the "export" of jobs and services (offshoring). Which is why protests at the Chinese embassy might be missing their target (though as China itself becomes richer, that is starting to apply less to them; and of course they're starting to "export" some of their production to other places, eg some African countries). It makes it increasingly hard for any protest (not just environmental) to protest directly at it source (though I'm still not sure of the value in jumping on train roofs).
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« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2019, 12:08:09 pm »

The other factor is that as we have embraced the need to make our energy cleaner, it has pushed the cost up.  So energy intensive industries are encouraged to move to places where energy costs are less - which usually means places where energy is still relatively "dirty".  And then you have the energy involved in transporting the goods to here as well.
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Timmer
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« Reply #57 on: April 22, 2019, 01:37:54 pm »

You have ignored the point that our imports involve emissions that are attributed to others. And that remaining 30% isn't going to be met unless we do more. So far we've done the easy stuff, replacing coal with natural gas and cutting heavy industry (offshoring it to others). Some of our supposed reduction is claimed from the use of biofuels that are not actually sustainable. That's not good enough, and there is plenty more that can be done without adversely affecting quality of life.
I wouldnít say ignore as you make a good point. Imports being down to mass consumerism. How do you slow that down, by substantially increasing prices but it would take a brave retailer to be the first to do that. I donít think you can slow it down by using an emotional argument.
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ellendune
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« Reply #58 on: April 22, 2019, 02:23:06 pm »

You have ignored the point that our imports involve emissions that are attributed to others. And that remaining 30% isn't going to be met unless we do more. So far we've done the easy stuff, replacing coal with natural gas and cutting heavy industry (offshoring it to others). Some of our supposed reduction is claimed from the use of biofuels that are not actually sustainable. That's not good enough, and there is plenty more that can be done without adversely affecting quality of life.
I wouldnít say ignore as you make a good point. Imports being down to mass consumerism. How do you slow that down, by substantially increasing prices but it would take a brave retailer to be the first to do that. I donít think you can slow it down by using an emotional argument.

I would say that a good start would be for all good exported from a country to be deducted from the carbon account for that country and added to the carbon account for the importing country (along with the carbon involved in the transport).  That way governments could not hide behind deindustrialisation in their own country and it might give incentives for low carbon production wherever it is in the world. 
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broadgage
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« Reply #59 on: April 22, 2019, 02:42:19 pm »

Whilst the UK has indeed made reasonable progress towards carbon reduction, we should remember that the initial reductions are relatively easy.

Eliminating carbon emissions in just a few years is far harder. Consider just a few of the measures needed.

Ration electricity to that produced renewably. If electric public transport and vital services are to receive priority, then this means largely eliminating domestic electricity use.

Prohibit most domestic heating.

Eliminate road transport, unless it is electric AND if the owners very limited electricity ration permits charging the vehicle.

Close down air transport, apart from the trivial percentage that is electric. No more air freight.

Close down sea transport, apart from the minute volume that is sail powered or electric. No more bulk food imports.

And even those draconian measures wont eliminate carbon emissions, but would be a start.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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