Easter Quiz

[whole diary]

[stuving]

Since I don't have your source for no. 9, I shall have to guess. One guinea sounds about right - third class, naturally.

[grahame]

Since I don't have your source for no. 9, I shall have to guess. One guinea sounds about right - third class, naturally.

That would have been a perfect answer for first class!

[Red Squirrel]

1. Ruabon-Barmouth: (Llangollen Railway (preserved standard gauge), Bala Lake Railway (preserved narrow gauge), Barmouth Jct (Morfa Mawddach)-Barmouth (NR^» (Network Rail - home page))

[grahame]

1. Ruabon-Barmouth: (Llangollen Railway (preserved standard gauge), Bala Lake Railway (preserved narrow gauge), Barmouth Jct (Morfa Mawddach)-Barmouth (NR^» (Network Rail - home page))

Correct.   

I am ... tempted ... to raise the question of "preserved" v "heritage" v "tourist"; I chose in the question to use "heritage" for the Llangollen railway and "tourist" for the Bala Lake. To my mind, a "preserved railway" is one with the tracks in situ from the days prior to it becoming a heritage or tourist attraction, though I suppose there are preserved elements in place on the Llangollen railway at some stations and in the rolling stock, and even on the Bala Lake at Llanuwchllyn's station buildings.

[grahame]

Just 2 questions remaining ...

4. The first trains in the country to be fitted with retention toilets. On what route? In what year were they fitted?

8. Summer 1952 departures at 06:25, 07:25, 08:25, 09:00, 10:30, 12:20, 13:12, 14:20, 15:13 (Saturday only), 17:00, 17:35, 19:05, 21:00, 22:05 and 23:10 (Wednesdays and Saturdays only). 11:05, 17:25, 19:15, 20:20, 21:34 and 22:33 on Sundays.   From where?

And an incorrect guess at no. 4 has suggested that the answer is prior to 1983, and is not the appropriately named BED-PAN line with class 317 - suggestion by celestial.

[Red Squirrel]

 

I am ... tempted ... to raise the question of "preserved" v "heritage" v "tourist"; I chose in the question to use "heritage" for the Llangollen railway and "tourist" for the Bala Lake. To my mind, a "preserved railway" is one with the tracks in situ from the days prior to it becoming a heritage or tourist attraction, though I suppose there are preserved elements in place on the Llangollen railway at some stations and in the rolling stock, and even on the Bala Lake at Llanuwchllyn's station buildings.

It's a nice point. There's no original track on the Llangollen Railway, but even on railways where the track stayed in situ after closure they are now needing to replace it - generally with non-prototypical FB rail on concrete sleepers. The GWSR was initially relaid in part using 'correct' GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) throughbolt sleepers, but the railway's policy is now to replace these with top-screwed Southern-style ones (where they still use wood) as these are easier to maintain, and for similar reasons the Toddington to Broadway section is CWR^▸ (Continuously Welded Rail), again for ease of maintenance. The upshot this is that there is no such thing as a 'preserved' railway; heritage railways, are at, best conserved.

[stuving]

Since I don't have your source for no. 9, I shall have to guess. One guinea sounds about right - third class, naturally.

That would have been a perfect answer for first class!

Are you sure that's 1st class?  I mean, it wasn't just a wild guess!

[Richard Fairhurst]

4. The first trains in the country to be fitted with retention toilets. On what route? In what year were they fitted?

I've found an answer for this but will let someone else in first as I've answered one already!

But "Misery" might be a clue...

[grahame]

Since I don't have your source for no. 9, I shall have to guess. One guinea sounds about right - third class, naturally.

That would have been a perfect answer for first class!

Are you sure that's 1st class?  I mean, it wasn't just a wild guess!

Yeah - I know it was a wild guess.  I was amazed - I really expected a long series of "higher" and "lower" hints would be needed!

[stuving]

That is rather odd. It ended up as a more informed guess than I expected, using Ordinary Single fares from Paddington in Timetable World's two Western Region timetables of around that date:

May 1949 Melksham 1st: 32/7 3rd 19/6 (Trowbridge is the same)

May 1965 Trowbridge 2nd: 24/-  (for some reason Melksham isn't listed...)

I was surprised to find those fares so close to each other that interpolation could be done with some confidence ... but even more surprised to find that confidence vitiated by fares being so much lower in 1952!

[Oxonhutch]

Interesting that the first class fare is 1.5 * 3rd (standard) class fare consistently across the table.  Compare that today from Reading to Paddington where the respective fares are £44.90 and £25.10 nearly a ratio of 1.8, and three years ago - before the first class price freeze* - it was in excess of 2!

*very quietly introduced such that even the ticket staff didn't know.

[stuving]

Interesting that the first class fare is 1.5 * 3rd (standard) class fare consistently across the table.  Compare that today from Reading to Paddington where the respective fares are £44.90 and £25.10 nearly a ratio of 1.8, and three years ago - before the first class price freeze* - it was in excess of 2!

*very quietly introduced such that even the ticket staff didn't know.

If you look at other timetables on Timetable World, you will see that in 1949 on WR the mark-up for first was above 50% in most cases, and even at that date subject the kind of mysterious variations that we see now. For example, Penzance 102/11 and 61/10 (66% mark-up, and I've not tried hard to find the biggest).

You will also observe that peculiarly British notion - that a return ticket ought not to cost much more than a single - was already current, so a monthly return to Penzance was 123/9 and 82/6. Here the mark-up for 1st is regularly 50%, so the cost of the return trip in 1st almost the same as in 3rd! (20/10 vs 20/8).

This scheme is explained in words in the 1950 SR^‡(resolve) timetable, below the list of 1st and 3rd single fares:

"Monthly return tickets...
  THIRD CLASS - at approximately single fare and one third for return journey.
  FIRST CLASS - 50 percent over third class
Ordinary return tickets at double the ordinary single fares are available ... outward and return halves are valid for three months."

And in 1965 the WR fares list, now solely of 2nd class, has at its head:

"Ordinary returns are issued generally at double the single fare.
FIRST CLASS tickets are approximately 50 percent above second class."

I have read somewhere that, after the war, fares were put up by 40%; mainly to reduce demand to what the railways could cope with in their run-down state. I could believe that 1st fares went up a bit more then, and the 50% mark-up had been normal before that (at least for some companies) and was reintroduced later on. You might also guess that the sharp drop (reversing much more than 40%) of 1949-52 was the removal of that "austerity" surcharge, though how that relates to  the change of government in 1951 is unclear.

[grahame]

"Open Season" ... the remaining questions are now available to anyone, including those who have already provided a correct answer.   From reading a comment, I suspect one member will common with a correct answer to No. 4 on his next visit to the forum.   Not even a hint at no. 8 yet, but then I don't know of any members who live in that place.

Just 2 questions remaining ...

4. The first trains in the country to be fitted with retention toilets. On what route? In what year were they fitted?

8. Summer 1952 departures at 06:25, 07:25, 08:25, 09:00, 10:30, 12:20, 13:12, 14:20, 15:13 (Saturday only), 17:00, 17:35, 19:05, 21:00, 22:05 and 23:10 (Wednesdays and Saturdays only). 11:05, 17:25, 19:15, 20:20, 21:34 and 22:33 on Sundays.   From where?

And an incorrect guess at no. 4 has suggested that the answer is prior to 1983, and is not the appropriately named BED-PAN line with class 317 - suggestion by celestial.

[jamestheredengine]

4. Class 159 on Waterloo-Exeter in 1993?

[Richard Fairhurst]

No 4 - I think! - is the Southend Corridor Express, on the London Tilbury & Southend ("Misery") Line. Introduced circa 1910. http://citytransport.info/Compartment.htm