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Author Topic: Journey Swindon to Birmingham 07/05  (Read 4884 times)
ellendune
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« on: May 04, 2019, 11:40:37 »

I am proposing to go to Birmingham on Tuesday evening returning Wednesday early evening. 

The booking engines seem to say that any anytime return is not valid on services via Cheltenham in the late afternoon surely this is nonsense!

as I also need to call in at Bristol Parkway is this ticket valid via Bristol parkway with a break of journey?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 12:07:35 by ellendune » Logged
grahame
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2019, 12:05:40 »

I am proposing to go to Birmingham on Tuesday evening returning Wednesday early evening. 

The booking engines seem to say that any anytime return is not valid on services via Cheltenham in the late afternoon surely this is nonsense!

as I also need to call in at Bristol Parkway is this ticket valid via Bristol parkway with a break of journey?

Swindon to Birmingham New Street via Bristol Parkway is not a valid route - even though its often the fastest route - hence the apparent lack of journeys ... screen shot attachment.

If you need to go via Cheltenham Spa, put in "via Kemble" (simples  Grin ) rather than via Cheltenham Spa and it will sort you out ...

If you need to go via Parkway ... probably split tickets but I will leave Dr BigNoseMac to diagnose the best priced and most flexible for you ...
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ellendune
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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2019, 12:09:29 »

It was always my understanding that, although Swindon to Cheltenham was not valid via Parkway, Swindon to places north of Cheltenham was valid via Parkway. 

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stuving
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« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2019, 12:17:43 »

Using the NR» (Network Rail - home page) OJP (Online Journey Planner), and quite early in the evening, it does offer an outward journey changing at Gloucester. Most of the returns are change at Bristol Parkway, with the warning you need two tickets; it's no surprise the routeing Guide says "no" on that one. There's also a return with a change at Cheltenham. No doubt it all depends on what gives the quickest journey at that time of day.

All the returns are period, not day, ones so an off-peak return should do fine. As you say, there maybe be somewhere between Birmingham and BPW» (Bristol Parkway - next trains) for which routes via BHM and BPW are both valid, so a return to there might just work. BRFares says overnight break of journey is allowed, and that goes for singles too!
« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 14:25:31 by stuving » Logged
ellendune
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« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2019, 12:38:06 »

Then why have XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) train staff previously advised me to go via Bristol Parkway when there has been a gap in the services from Cheltenham?
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paul7575
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« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2019, 13:21:49 »

Then why have XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) train staff previously advised me to go via Bristol Parkway when there has been a gap in the services from Cheltenham?
Because in general they just don’t know the routeing rules, and probably aren’t trained to that level of knowledge at all...

Paul
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stuving
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« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2019, 14:01:23 »

One of the routes offered by the NR» (Network Rail - home page) OJP (Online Journey Planner) involved a change at Reading. I can't see why that's not barred by the rule about doubling back. There are exceptions to that rule for travel via a common routeing point, but in this case both SWI» (Swindon - next trains) and BHM are routeing points. Mind you, this is one area of the routeing guide I've never really understood.

In this case it's even slower than changing at Didcot and Oxford onto the same XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) train to BHM.
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LiskeardRich
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« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2019, 14:10:20 »

There’s a thread on railforums started this week about Swindon to Cheltenham and north, created due to the quickest route (via bristol Parkway) not being valid. It’s more of a trivia thread about any other quickest routes being invalid.
Via Bristol Parkway isn’t valid on a single ticket, and requires split ticketing.
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eightonedee
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« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2019, 20:15:12 »

The discussion in this thread illustrates something that the  Williams Review should highlight as one of the problems that derogate from a truly user friendly passenger service.

The industry as a whole has to appreciate that for journeys like this, where there is no direct mainline service, it is unforgivable that you cannot pay a single fare and mix and match any convenient service via Reading, Didcot, Cheltenham or Bristol,  whichever works best at the time you are travelling without having to run the risk of encountering a member of train staff who happens to know the arcane rules who will fine you for doing so or relying on the knowledge of someone who knows at precisely which station en route you can split your tickets to do so.

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grahame
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« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2019, 07:13:28 »

The discussion in this thread illustrates something that the  Williams Review should highlight as one of the problems that derogate from a truly user friendly passenger service.

The industry as a whole has to appreciate that for journeys like this, where there is no direct mainline service, it is unforgivable that you cannot pay a single fare and mix and match any convenient service via Reading, Didcot, Cheltenham or Bristol,  whichever works best at the time you are travelling without having to run the risk of encountering a member of train staff who happens to know the arcane rules who will fine you for doing so or relying on the knowledge of someone who knows at precisely which station en route you can split your tickets to do so.

Quoted in full because you are so right.  Turn up at station "A" at any time, going to station "B" ... and whatever route will get you to "B" earliest should be a permitted route, with "any permitted" tickets available between all pairs of stations ...

Examples of other aberrations ...

* Westbury to Manchester Piccadilly ... available "via London" and "not via London" but no "any permitted".

* Melksham to Bristol Parkway ... only available via Bath Spa, when routinely much faster via Swindon.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 07:21:07 by grahame » Logged

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jamestheredengine
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« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2019, 08:58:53 »

Meanwhile, NR» (Network Rail - home page) still has this brilliant advice on its website: "All tickets are valid via any reasonable route unless specifically stated on the ticket."
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Robin Summerhill
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« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2019, 12:39:56 »

The discussion in this thread illustrates something that the  Williams Review should highlight as one of the problems that derogate from a truly user friendly passenger service.

The industry as a whole has to appreciate that for journeys like this, where there is no direct mainline service, it is unforgivable that you cannot pay a single fare and mix and match any convenient service via Reading, Didcot, Cheltenham or Bristol,  whichever works best at the time you are travelling without having to run the risk of encountering a member of train staff who happens to know the arcane rules who will fine you for doing so or relying on the knowledge of someone who knows at precisely which station en route you can split your tickets to do so.

Quoted in full because you are so right.  Turn up at station "A" at any time, going to station "B" ... and whatever route will get you to "B" earliest should be a permitted route, with "any permitted" tickets available between all pairs of stations ...

Examples of other aberrations ...

* Westbury to Manchester Piccadilly ... available "via London" and "not via London" but no "any permitted".

* Melksham to Bristol Parkway ... only available via Bath Spa, when routinely much faster via Swindon.

I find myself yet again potentially stimulating debate!

Since the introduction of “selective pricing” in the 1960s the railways have been, in essence, charging what the market will bear, in exactly the same way as many if not all businesses operate. You are not going to work for £10 per hour if you know you can get £20 somewhere else, and Sainsburys aren’t going to flog cans of peas for 45 pence when they know people will happily pay 50 pence for them. This is The Great Order of Things.

Applying these principles to a Swindon to Birmingham trip, we have a number of options, some more convoluted than others, with rounded mileages shown in brackets:

1.   Via Bath, Bristol TM(resolve) and Cheltenham (132 miles)
2.   Via Badminton, Bristol Parkway and Cheltenham (117 miles)
3.   Via Kemble and Cheltenham (88 miles)
4.   Via Didcot and Leamington (106 miles)
5.   Via Reading and Leamington (139 miles)
6.   Via Paddington and Euston (187 miles)

Of these options, 1, 2 and 4 have their own healthy “domestic trade.” The TOCs (Train Operating Company) may feel no particular need to encourage more traffic onto what are well-patronised services anyway.

Under the current fares regime, options 5 and 6 are going to attract a premium anyway because the magic words “Reading” “Paddington” and “Euston” appear.

That leaves option 3 – get the punters to use a comparatively under-used line (which was of course singled for a proportion of its length until just recently), where a few more bums on seats might be welcomed.

Looking at it in that way you begin to see a rationale behind what otherwise appears to be irrational. Whether you personally agree with that rationale is another matter, but at least you can now see it!

So what would have happened under the old “pence per mile” system? If, for sake of argument, we said that the going rate for a mileage-based system was 30 pence per mile in this day and age, we would find the following fares:

Option     single   return   Price
Bristol TM     132   264       £79.20
Badminton   117   234       £70.20
Kemble        88   176       £52.80
Didcot      106      212       £63.60
Reading      139       278   £83.40
London       187       374   £112.20
    Average                  £76.90
So which of these is the fairest fare? The cheapest (£52.80) but you could go whichever way you wanted? That wouldn’t work because you would actually be charging people going from Swindon to Birmingham via Paddington a lot less than you would for those simply going from Euston to Birmingham (£69.00 using this scenario). That would of course get some interesting headlines in the press about a new improved rail fare shambles… So could you charge the average of £76.90 and let people go whichever way they want? Once again that would be prone to problems if people going from, say. Windsor to Birmingham via Paddington started comparing the fare they paid with someone who started their journey at Swindon.

“Ah!” you may say – “you’re just being stupid! People who want to go via London would expect to have to pay more!” But the minute you say that you accept that you have just introduced a routeing condition, and then you have to decide where to draw the line and which routes to allow, and which routes to deny.

It’s not that simple any more, is it?


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ellendune
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« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2019, 12:50:24 »

Meanwhile, NR» (Network Rail - home page) still has this brilliant advice on its website: "All tickets are valid via any reasonable route unless specifically stated on the ticket."

I have just noticed that if you pick a place North of Birmingham, such as Derby, then the route Swindon via Bristol Parkway suddenly becomes a valid route!

I haven't looked recently, but I seem to recall the platform timetables at Cheltenham that listed trains to Swindon included trains via Parkway!
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Robin Summerhill
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« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2019, 13:05:35 »

I've just thought of something else that would count against an average fare based on a pence per mile fare structure.

The average that I calculated for Swindon to Birmingham by the various routes was £76.90, rather more than the £52.80 for the shortest route.

If there was no average fare that needed to be calculated because there is obviously only one route to take eg. Swindon to Stroud, Stroud to Cheltenham and Cheltenham to Brum, a savvy traveller could save £24.10 by - wait for it - splitting the ticket  Grin
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eightonedee
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« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2019, 13:36:07 »

Quote
I've just thought of something else that would count against an average fare based on a pence per mile fare structure.

The average that I calculated for Swindon to Birmingham by the various routes was £76.90, rather more than the £52.80 for the shortest route.

If there was no average fare that needed to be calculated because there is obviously only one route to take eg. Swindon to Stroud, Stroud to Cheltenham and Cheltenham to Brum, a savvy traveller could save £24.10 by - wait for it - splitting the ticket  Grin

My point remains, and is confirmed - it's meant to be a public transport service, not an initiative test.
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