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Author Topic: "Travelling by train is up to 13 times more expensive than driving"  (Read 8945 times)
Robin Summerhill
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« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2019, 20:39:12 »

Quote from: TaplowGreen
......I think perhaps the Mail is not the only one being "hysterical"?  Wink

It's a valid point that rail travel can be extremely expensive, almost invariably more so than jumping in the car, particularly if there is a family or group involved, or if the travel is taking place on a "walk up" basis, rather than with the benefit of enough available planning time to obtain a "cheaper" advance ticket - the cost of driving doesn't alter whether you decide to go at one minute or one months notice, and 4 people in a car only cost fractionally more in terms of fuel consumption, whereas 4 train tickets? Considerably more, particularly if Groupsave isn't available/possible.

There is also the ridiculous amount of different fares, splitting, etc, some of which not available from all sources which further complicate the issue.

II hits the nail on the head (as so often) - train fares "can" be a ripoff (can is the pivotal word), some can be cheaper, most are somewhere in between, very few will prove cheaper than a car journey.

No matter how keen one is on trains, or reluctant to accept anything from the Daily Mail, it's important to keep perspective (…..and avoid hysteria!)  Smiley

All this correct, but it made me start wondering exactly how many anytime tickets on any given route are sold in proportion to the total number of tickets sold for that route?

To take Chippenham to Paddington as an example, the three basic return fares in standard class  (excluding any advance tickets, railcard discounts or splitting)  are anytime £178.00, off peak £74.60, super off  peak £55.90. It is also worth mentioning that  a weekly season CPM» (Chippenham - next trains) to PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) only (ie. excluding LT travelcard) is £282.30. For a regular 5-day-week commuter, this equates to £56.46 per trip, only 56 pence more than a super off peak return, and you also have the option of using at weekends too if you have a mind to.  http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=cpm&dest=pad

So who in their right minds are going to buy an anytime return ticket? Regular commuters certainly won't. 99% of leisure travellers aren't going to either. It is generally going to be a very small select group of people who, for example, are going for one-off business meetings or, perhaps, have to be at an airport before the off peak fares kick in.

I often make the point on non-railway forums when the subject of "criminal BR (British Rail(ways)) Fares" comes up (and especially when the prices are compared to air travel) - "Try walking into Heathrow tomorrow morning and asking for a ticket on the next flight to Aberdeen, and see how much BA» (British Airways - about) will screw out of you..." The common counter-argument is "but people plan ahead when they're flying" and they get the reply "to which the answer is obvious, isn't it? Think ahead and get a cheap rail fare"

But the thing that "grinds my gears" about this sort of Wail drivel is not that a coach and horses can be driven through their reasoning, but that huge numbers of their readers believe it to be gospel truth. And these people, based on the swill the Mail and similar papers have fed them, won't go and find out for themselves when they would find a completely different, and more accurate, picture. In short, it is costing the railways money in lost potential fares.

Even people who should know better can get drawn in by this nonsense. A few years go my old school friend who now lives in Berlin happened to be over when I was doing a walk with the Railway Ramblers between Swindon Old Town and Cricklade, including a ride on the railway that inconveniently bisects the footpath and cycle track ( Smiley ) and I invited him along. He was talking about driving to Swindon and parking there all day (Gawd knows where he thought he could park all day on a Saturday anywhere central...), because he had become so convinced by stories like this that he thought he'd have to take out a mortgage for his off peak return from Bristol...

Of course, whenever anyone takes the press to issue about misreporting or leading it's readers up the garden path by misrepresenting the facts, and wanting to take steps to stop them doing it (eg Leveson enquiry), those self same journalists who write this tripe start bleating about the freedom of the press being undermined.

Funny old world, innit?
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Clan Line
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« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2019, 20:59:24 »

"Try walking into Heathrow tomorrow morning and asking for a ticket on the next flight to Aberdeen, and see how much BA» (British Airways - about) will screw out of you..."


Thought I'd try that:

Single Economy/Std Class ticket, London to Aberdeen for tomorrow:
Air (BA):   £287 to £384.Depending on time of flight.
Rail:         £181.50 - Anytime day single:  £102 - Advance single (still showing as avaliable) (First Class Advance - £135)
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Robin Summerhill
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« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2019, 21:07:55 »

Quote from: Clan Line


Thought I'd try that:

Single Economy/Std Class ticket, London to Aberdeen for tomorrow:
Air (BA» (British Airways - about)):   £287 to £384.Depending on time of flight.
Rail:         £181.50 - Anytime day single:  £102 - Advance single (still showing as avaliable) (First Class Advance - £135)

I hear the gentle thud of a case resting.

Will you tell The Wail or shall  I?  Grin
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Celestial
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« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2019, 21:14:00 »

Easyjet is quoting £130 for tomorrow though from Luton.
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martyjon
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« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2019, 06:33:07 »

Easyjet is even cheaper than driving, last time my Bristol to Glasgow and back cost, Bristol to Glasgow, £24.99 and Glasgow to Bristol. £22.98, in total £47.97, less than the total cost of a full tank of petrol into my Ford Fusion.
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ellendune
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« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2019, 08:03:49 »

Easyjet is even cheaper than driving, last time my Bristol to Glasgow and back cost, Bristol to Glasgow, £24.99 and Glasgow to Bristol. £22.98, in total £47.97, less than the total cost of a full tank of petrol into my Ford Fusion.

It would be more correct to say "Easyjet CAN BE cheaper than driving" since the fares vary depending on demand.   That's the problem here its like Magabus' £1 fares adverts if you only quote the lowest price that is only occasionally available or only available to a few travelers then it always looks cheap. 
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Robin Summerhill
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« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2019, 11:51:51 »

Quote from: ellendune
Quote from: martyjon
Easyjet is even cheaper than driving, last time my Bristol to Glasgow and back cost, Bristol to Glasgow, £24.99 and Glasgow to Bristol. £22.98, in total £47.97, less than the total cost of a full tank of petrol into my Ford Fusion.
It would be more correct to say "Easyjet CAN BE cheaper than driving" since the fares vary depending on demand.   That's the problem here its like Magabus' £1 fares adverts if you only quote the lowest price that is only occasionally available or only available to a few travelers then it always looks cheap. 

All this is true, but the Mail was reporting on "walk up" fares and so was I with my Chippenham to Paddington examples. Of course you can get a cheaper deal with Easyjet if you book an "advance" ticker, in exactly the same way as you can with a rail ticket.

Another thing worth remembering with airlines, especially the budget ones, is that the price can go up markedly if you are taking baggage along with you.
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2019, 12:34:15 »

Quote from: ellendune
Quote from: martyjon
Easyjet is even cheaper than driving, last time my Bristol to Glasgow and back cost, Bristol to Glasgow, £24.99 and Glasgow to Bristol. £22.98, in total £47.97, less than the total cost of a full tank of petrol into my Ford Fusion.
It would be more correct to say "Easyjet CAN BE cheaper than driving" since the fares vary depending on demand.   That's the problem here its like Magabus' £1 fares adverts if you only quote the lowest price that is only occasionally available or only available to a few travelers then it always looks cheap. 

All this is true, but the Mail was reporting on "walk up" fares and so was I with my Chippenham to Paddington examples. Of course you can get a cheaper deal with Easyjet if you book an "advance" ticker, in exactly the same way as you can with a rail ticket.

Another thing worth remembering with airlines, especially the budget ones, is that the price can go up markedly if you are taking baggage along with you.

In point of fact The Mail was reporting on Railway v Road, with only the tiniest reference to air from one of the independent sources.....for what it's worth, IMHO (in my humble opinion) using the London-Aberdeen example you cited, 1hr 45 by air v 7 hours by train,  for only a few £ extra from London Luton? No contest.......but anyway as you were! 🙂
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Robin Summerhill
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« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2019, 20:22:52 »

Quote from: TaplowGreen

In point of fact The Mail was reporting on Railway v Road, with only the tiniest reference to air from one of the independent sources.....for what it's worth, IMHO (in my humble opinion) using the London-Aberdeen example you cited, 1hr 45 by air v 7 hours by train,  for only a few £ extra from London Luton? No contest.......but anyway as you were! 🙂

My mentioning walk-up fares on airlines did send the comtributors a little off topic, so getting back to the crux of the issue by using a similar comparison:

As posted above, anytime single London to Aberdeen £181.50
Google maps tells me it is 546 miles by road and the journey would currently take 10h 42m. At 18ppm (the cost of diesel for my elderly  2.2L Mercedes) that would cost me just short of £100 in my car. Add in maintenance and repair costs (which I have found to be approximately equal to the fuel cost) takes the total to just short of £200. Depreciation would not be an issue for me (because it's a 1998 Merc and only cost me £1600 when I bought it ten years ago!) but it would be for others, more than offsetting the savings on repair and maintenance for a newer car. Tax and insurance would be fixed costs that you would pay for having the car in the first lace, so you wouldm't reasonably apportion them to a trip like this.

So in summary, walk up fares are air £287 cheapest and takes 105 mins; rail £181.50 and takes 7 hours, road c.£200 and takes just under 11 hours.

As the say, you pays your money and takes your choice. I can't see any numbers in there that support the "thirteen times more expensive" claim, though Smiley
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2019, 21:41:55 »

Quote from: TaplowGreen

In point of fact The Mail was reporting on Railway v Road, with only the tiniest reference to air from one of the independent sources.....for what it's worth, IMHO (in my humble opinion) using the London-Aberdeen example you cited, 1hr 45 by air v 7 hours by train,  for only a few £ extra from London Luton? No contest.......but anyway as you were! 🙂

My mentioning walk-up fares on airlines did send the comtributors a little off topic, so getting back to the crux of the issue by using a similar comparison:

As posted above, anytime single London to Aberdeen £181.50
Google maps tells me it is 546 miles by road and the journey would currently take 10h 42m. At 18ppm (the cost of diesel for my elderly  2.2L Mercedes) that would cost me just short of £100 in my car. Add in maintenance and repair costs (which I have found to be approximately equal to the fuel cost) takes the total to just short of £200. Depreciation would not be an issue for me (because it's a 1998 Merc and only cost me £1600 when I bought it ten years ago!) but it would be for others, more than offsetting the savings on repair and maintenance for a newer car. Tax and insurance would be fixed costs that you would pay for having the car in the first lace, so you wouldm't reasonably apportion them to a trip like this.

So in summary, walk up fares are air £287 cheapest and takes 105 mins; rail £181.50 and takes 7 hours, road c.£200 and takes just under 11 hours.

As the say, you pays your money and takes your choice. I can't see any numbers in there that support the "thirteen times more expensive" claim, though Smiley

Can you point me to the section of the article which claims that rail travel from London to Aberdeen is 13 times more expensive? (Apologies if I've missed it if it's obvious, at my age the eyes aren't as good as they used to be!)
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grahame
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« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2019, 01:53:56 »

Original Story picked up by Somerset Live

Quote
It found that taking a car was cheaper every single time even though petrol prices have recently reached a six-month high, according to the RAC Foundation.

The fuel figures don't account for the other costs of running a car - depriciation, maintenance, insurance and road duty.

But they give an indication of the immediate outlay needed to make each journey.

Quote
Train and car comparisons

Peak travel return Southampton to Bath:

Cost of ticket: £125.70
Cost of petrol: £11.79
Difference in price: £113.91

Off peak travel Southampton to Bath:

Cost of ticket: £32.40
Cost of petrol: £11.79
Difference in price: £20.61
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rogerw
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« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2019, 10:18:41 »

I like the way that the press does not let the truth get in the way of a good story.  The obvious route from Southampton to Bath by train is via Salisbury - a through train.  The peak return fare by that route is £35.80, not the £125.70 quoted.  Also I would like to know how they calculated the petrol cost.  I have a small, economical car, but I calculated my petrol cost at over £16.  Journey time is also a consideration. Train is generally 86 minutes.  Google does not give an accurate journey time for peak travel but states up to 150 minutes.  Yes the train is more expensive  than just petrol costs but that is not the only consideration in choosing mode of travel.
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stuving
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« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2019, 12:25:37 »

I like the way that the press does not let the truth get in the way of a good story.  The obvious route from Southampton to Bath by train is via Salisbury - a through train.  The peak return fare by that route is £36.80, not the £125.70 quoted.  Also I would like to know how they calculated the petrol cost.  I have a small, economical car, but I calculated my petrol cost at over £16.  Journey time is also a consideration. Train is generally 86 minutes.  Google does not give an accurate journey time for peak travel but states up to 150 minutes.  Yes the train is more expensive  than just petrol costs but that is not the only consideration in choosing mode of travel.

It's even more extreme than that. BRfares gives these return fares (all GWR (Great Western Railway) priced):
Via Salisbury £28.30 (day) £32.40 (OPk) £35.80 (AT)
"Not via London" £55.90 (SOP (Standard Operating Instructions)) £74.60 (OPk) £195! (AT)

OJP (Online Journey Planner) does offer some journeys even at the highest price, via Reading, but they are significantly slower.
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froome
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« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2019, 07:20:23 »

Why didn't they just go the whole hog and quote a fare going via Thurso? Embarrassed
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