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Author Topic: Shopping list please  (Read 3093 times)
grahame
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« on: October 03, 2023, 22:29:15 »

From Manchester Evening News. - (here)

Quote
Rishi Sunak - widely expected to announce the axing of the Manchester leg of HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) when he takes to the stage at the Conservative Party Conference in the heart of the city - will criticise decades of politicians making 'the easy decision, not the right one'.

It is predicted he will announce a package of transport measures - improving roads, buses and trains - reportedly worth £30bn to soften the blow tomorrow (Wednesday, October 4). The big spending promise is likely to placate bitterly disappointed northerners.

The Prime Minister will rail against post-Thatcher politics for focusing on quick fixes. He will attempt to portray himself as a radical reformer prepared to abandon the northern leg of HS2.

So - where would YOU spend £30bn?
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2023, 22:36:15 »

I’d put it towards improving local rail services. The best way to do that would be to remove the fast trains onto their own dedicated high-speed network connecting Birmingham with Manchester and Leeds. You could probably do that for £30bn if you set up a hands-off organisation to do it, and allowed it to take a sensible approach to risk.

I’d call it Great British High Speed II.
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grahame
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« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2023, 22:37:55 »

So - where would YOU spend £30bn?

Electrification
- Newbury and Cocklebury lane - Westbury - quarries and Taunton and Exeter
- Thingley Junction to Bristol and Taunton
- Bristol to Bromsgrove
- Bathampton to Redbridge
- Severn Beach to Stapleton Road
- if the money stretches, perhaps Didcot to Oxford?

Infrastructure improvements
- Redouble Thingley to Bradford Junctions
- Redouble Narroways Junction to Clifton Down
- 4th Platform at Westbury
- Norton Fitzwarren to Butlins Platform
- Footbridges at Pilning
- Bradford North and Lacock West curves
- Totton to Fawley
- Bristol to Portishead
- Okehampton to Bere Alston
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« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2023, 22:58:37 »

If we're playing fantasy railways, heavy rail to Bristol Airport with north and south facing junctions onto the main line.

And trams, lots of trams.
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PhilWakely
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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2023, 06:34:20 »

So - where would YOU spend £30bn?

Electrification
- Newbury and Cocklebury lane - Westbury - quarries and Taunton and Exeter
- Thingley Junction to Bristol and Taunton
- Bristol to Bromsgrove
- Bathampton to Redbridge
- Severn Beach to Stapleton Road
- Worting Junction to Exeter St David's
- if the money stretches, perhaps Didcot to Oxford?

Infrastructure improvements
- Redouble Thingley to Bradford Junctions
- Redouble Narroways Junction to Clifton Down
- 4th Platform at Westbury
- Norton Fitzwarren to Butlins Platform
- Footbridges at Pilning
- Bradford North and Lacock West curves
- Totton to Fawley
- Bristol to Portishead
- Okehampton to Bere Alston
- Redouble Wilton South to Pinhoe
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CyclingSid
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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2023, 06:49:04 »

NOT on more roads to get people to the next traffic jam quicker. Better value repairing/maintaining local infrastructure
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broadgage
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« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2023, 07:07:18 »

More trains, so as to eliminate short formations, have a margin for special events AND a margin for growth.
proper inter city trains, with catering, padded seats, gangway throughout and no underfloor engines.
Platform extensions in many places so as to allow longer trains.
Electrification, and when not realistic, bi mode 25 kv/battery trains.
And an all year round service on the Minehead branch, including to a new Butlins platform.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TaplowGreen
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« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2023, 07:33:59 »

More trains, so as to eliminate short formations, have a margin for special events AND a margin for growth.
proper inter city trains, with catering, padded seats, gangway throughout and no underfloor engines.
Platform extensions in many places so as to allow longer trains.
Electrification, and when not realistic, bi mode 25 kv/battery trains.
And an all year round service on the Minehead branch, including to a new Butlins platform.


Damn! Just needed "Port" and I could have called "House" on my Broadgage Bingo card!  Wink
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broadgage
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« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2023, 07:59:16 »

Port is included under "catering"
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
GBM
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« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2023, 09:27:20 »

Dawlish avoiding line.
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eightonedee
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« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2023, 14:15:28 »

Much as I deplore the decision, and indeed the lack of vision in not planning a comprehensive network linking Edinburgh, Glasgow and the major cities of the North to London at the outset here's my "shopping list".
Trying to take a more strategic long-term view (so sadly unlikely to get past the Treasury, or appeal to any politician with a horizon that stops between the next election and the next one after that), my list is

1-   Electrification –
Don’t just pile into it for headlines. Start off with a comprehensive survey of the entire unelectrified network using the best modern technology to record all structures, clearances and services and record on central BIM (Building Information Modeling) (or equivalent) database – properly backed up and maintained to avoid what appears to have been one of the problems of the first incomplete GW (Great Western) scheme – it seems there were too many surprises in the ground or with bridge clearances, even of new structures like the Tilehurst footbridge or the Padworth Lane bridge which must have contributed to cost and programme overruns.

Take a more pragmatic approach to specification – were those huge rings driven into the ground and vast amount of overhead Meccano on the GW scheme necessary? And presumably now most of the four-track network has been done it should be easier in future, so start off by developing new standard equipment for future schemes.

Establish a permanent team at Network Rail to run a 10 year plus programme to do everything – much of the rest of the world seems to be able to electrify most of their network. There are obvious candidates for early schemes – particularly the remaining parts of the GW main line network and the Midland Main Line, and someone will have to decide which comes first and the rest of us will have to live with this – provided we trust the powers-that-be to deliver the whole package. I appreciate that (say) the Newquay branch might be difficult to justify on current financial models, but if it then has to have one-off battery charging infrastructure and rolling stock that will need replacing in cycles over the decades with bespoke equipment (much of which from the class 769 and 230 experience seems yet to be properly developed to the point of being reliable), I expect the initial cost saving will slowly evaporate. We should have the ability to design standard apparatus that can be rolled out across low (or lower) use lines, like Settle-Carlisle, the Cumbrian Coast, mid-Wales and the West Highland line with economies of scale and flexibility of operation that should come with standardisation. See also rolling stock comments below.

And special pleading for an ex-North Downs Line commuter – fill the gaps on this line between Wokingham and Ash, and Artingdon and Reigate, and don’t be precious about it being third rail.

If the Government (and the Treasury) is really serious about environmental improvement and carbon reduction, then this should have top priority.

2 – Complete the East-West link asap-
This should include interchange stations at each point where it crosses any existing main line, electrification throughout, and use the southern approach to Cambridge – the topography is easier and there’s the remaining formation from the east end of the old Cambridge-Bedford line to take advantage of. Yes, I know there’s currently a bus way there, but I anticipate that the costs of new earthworks to take the line from Cambourne to North Cambridge, down the hill from Madingley, over the A14, A428 and M11 to the northern bus/rail interchange will be far greater.

3 – Trains
Before procuring any new trains, commission someone (who knows what they are doing) to draw up a universal specification (or probably two, one for express stock, one for the rest of passenger stock), that not only deals with passenger amenity  -(including no more than four across seating, all seats to align with windows, loos on all trains that are not “metro” going no more than 20 miles) – but also interoperability – trains that can go anywhere on the network, that can work in multiple with all other new stock, and if possible with as much existing stock too. It should also specify a common driver interface, so that crews will be familiar with controls and be able to use new stock with less training. Hopefully we can then avoid the current situation, where trains that are newer are being scrapped (such as the first Heathrow Express Stock) while units 10-15 years older soldier on, it will mean cascading or redeploying to meet demand is easier and we do not end up with the current GWR (Great Western Railway) fleet problem of two sets of stock, the Turbos and the rest, that cannot work together which presumably inhibits swapping out failed units if a depot cannot use part of its fleet due to incompatibility.

Pending completion of electrification, forum member Electric Train’s suggestion in his post on 20 September sounds like a way forward if (as seems likely) part of the current diesel fleet will be time-expired before electrification is complete.

One the specification is settled, existing suppliers could then be invited to tender for a long term rolling programme of fleet renewal.

4 – Stations and other built infrastructure
Here’s an idea, instead of closing ticket offices why not see how they (and their staff) cannot be better used? There’s a growing shortage of sub-post offices as the terms for taking on a sub-post office and the Horizon debacle make it increasingly unattractive to small shopkeepers to take on a sub-office. If you order goods on-line, there’s usually an option to collect from a collection point. So why not make the local station a centre for such services? Is there an entrepreneurial person out there with the initiative to make this work? Many of the smaller local stations whose ticket offices are under threat are probably in places where local services are in short supply (we no longer have a permanent post office in Goring for example), so perhaps someone should be on the phone to the Post Office, Amazon, the major courier companies and on-line retailers to sound them out? There’s bound to be investment needed to implement, but could it be worthwhile to secure more than one use for communities? It might even generate a return for the railway, and would certainly be better than the unimpressive performance I witnessed in my job from BRB(resolve) and its successors in attempting to get good returns on disposals of surplus land.
And another one – develop a suite of standard modular buildings, so that station building, upgrading and replacement can be streamlined, and costs saved over the current system which (as far as I know, apart from footbridges) involves a new commission each time to a large set of design guidelines.

5 – Ticketing and passenger interfaces
Develop a new universal ticket system, akin to the current magnetic strip APTIS (All Purpose Ticket Issuing System) tickets (and to replace them and all other “Oyster (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services)”, tap in or similar), based on QR (QR Code - Quick Response code) codes that can either be printed on a ticket at a ticket office, by a machine or at home, or held on a mobile device, with scanners at stations so everyone travelling will know that the system works throughout the rail and underground systems in the UK (United Kingdom).

Invest in a properly integrated information system, so that on-line, station sign and on-train information is up-to-date and comprehensive, so that when things go wrong you don’t just get “delayed”, an apology for no information or different information from different sources.
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« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2023, 19:57:43 »

Buses to get people to all the shiny new things listed above.

Rural bus services here (west wales) are almost none existent and where they do exist are one bus into town in the morning and another back out later in the afternoon. Makes a trip into the nearest town a day out rather an hour or two.

And good luck if you want to catch a connecting train.
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grahame
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« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2023, 08:41:34 »

Much as I deplore the decision, and indeed the lack of vision in not planning a comprehensive network linking Edinburgh, Glasgow and the major cities of the North to London at the outset here's my "shopping list".
Trying to take a more strategic long-term view (so sadly unlikely to get past the Treasury, or appeal to any politician with a horizon that stops between the next election and the next one after that), my list is ..

Noting that the Transport Secretary now says his announcements were "just examples" - I think that you (and some other member comments) have done a darned sight better than Rishi Sunak (and Mark Harper).  I am delighted to see strong and well informed community input equalling or surpassing the official position in quality, but saddened that the official position has been so poorly set that it's made the community input shine so brightly.
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