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Author Topic: Could you give up flying? Meet the no-plane pioneers  (Read 7316 times)
broadgage
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« Reply #60 on: October 17, 2019, 11:29:29 pm »

To revive this talk of hotel minibars, fridges and related matters.
An old friend recently stayed in a privately run small hotel and was impressed with the alternative to in-room minibars and the energy use thereof.
In the residents lounge was a large high efficiency glass fronted fridge containing a selection of soft drinks and alcoholic refreshment. Guests were invited to help themselves and pay for it the next morning. CCTV discouraged misuse.
The prices were the same as those charged in the bar.

This worked well, and was much appreciated by two guests returning very thirsty, just after the pubs shut.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
IndustryInsider
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« Reply #61 on: October 18, 2019, 05:59:46 am »

I’ve stayed in a couple of small hotels over the years with an identical ‘honesty base’ arrangement to that.
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grahame
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« Reply #62 on: October 18, 2019, 06:11:41 am »

I’ve stayed in a couple of small hotels over the years with an identical ‘honesty base’ arrangement to that.

You trust your guests ... and in 99% of cases the guests will trust you.  We did this I'm multiple areas (not just soft drinks)n and I can recall just two occasions in 10 years we were 'taken'. Which cost us a darned sight less than (for example) having a phone system into each room rather than an 'open' house phone.  All bar two staff members were equally trustworthy (they were each just with us a short time only) ...
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johnneyw
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« Reply #63 on: October 18, 2019, 07:35:13 am »

Well, that's a cheery few examples to start the day with. The honesty box at the "shop" in the garden where my brother works has by and large worked successfully for years. Mind you, that is in rural south Devon. I'm not sure that business model would work as well in all locations.
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TonyK
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« Reply #64 on: October 18, 2019, 09:48:46 am »

Well, that's a cheery few examples to start the day with. The honesty box at the "shop" in the garden where my brother works has by and large worked successfully for years. Mind you, that is in rural south Devon. I'm not sure that business model would work as well in all locations.

I love honesty boxes. I have amassed quite a collection over the years.
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eightf48544
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« Reply #65 on: October 18, 2019, 10:20:11 am »

It can be done.

I know someone who will be doing UK Australia both ways by rail and ship!

Not sure which route is out

 China near Hong Kong by Trans Siberian etc. Ship to Melbourne

Australia Singapore ship then train  to china and Trans Siberian. I understand ther my be coach inviolved between Cambodia and Vietnam.
Probably take 6 weeks.

Is that by cargo ship or other means?

Yes Cargo ships I believe through a French shipping agent.
He's successfully arrived in Australia, travelling by train around country. He will be back in the New Year will post how he gets on.

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TonyK
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« Reply #66 on: October 18, 2019, 09:36:48 pm »

I've tried to work out seeing my son in Canada from here in the UK.  One day in the UK to port, fourteen days minimum each way by ship (if you can find one thats not a cruise), one day by rail to his home.  And then there is the journey back again...... Roll Eyes

Reading back through this thread, there is a way of flying to Canada that could illustrate why taxation isn't always successful. The first time I went there, I travelled by Icelandair because it was cheaper, but also because we fancied a few days in Iceland on the way back. An unexpected result was that we didn't pay the long-haul flight tax, because Keflavik is short-haul, and Iceland doesn't have such a tax.the saving was significant. If the UK goes it alone and increases airline taxes further, more people will actively seek such arrangements, whilst the entire population of London and the south east will start their journeys to the far east by Eurostar to a French or Belgian airport.

Biofuels for aviation are a bit of a gimmick, and electric planes are some way off, but aircraft have become steadily more efficient and less polluting over the years. Continuing that trend is likely to achieve more in reality than asking people not to fly anywhere.
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Now, please!
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« Reply #67 on: October 18, 2019, 11:50:36 pm »

Yes I could and have given up flying, proably due to watching too many aircrash investigation programs, and being in the aviation industry for 30 years, though,the industry has it's bad days somtimes, i dont think there are any more saftey issues, than UK railways. a good track record for both.
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« Reply #68 on: October 19, 2019, 09:07:07 am »

whilst the entire population of London and the south east will start their journeys to the far east by Eurostar to a French or Belgian airport.

That would please those who don't want Heathrow expansion - London Brussels Airport anyone?
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broadgage
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« Reply #69 on: October 19, 2019, 09:30:48 am »

I agree that flying has a good safety record, I avoid it for environmental reasons not for fear of accidents.

Biofuels for aircraft seem most unlikely, apart from technical issues, the amount of farm land that would be required to produce the volumes of biofuels looks infeasible.

Electric aircraft are a possibility for short hops to otherwise inaccessible islands and the like, it seems unlikely that batteries will ever have sufficient energy density to cross major oceans.

Jet engines are now a mature technology and significant improvements in fuel economy seem unlikely.

Therefore the only way to significantly reduce carbon dioxide emissions from flying is to fly less, and preferably not at all.
Similar arguments apply to road transport, though at least electric road vehicles are a lot more viable than electric flight.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
stuving
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« Reply #70 on: October 19, 2019, 10:36:07 am »

I agree that flying has a good safety record, I avoid it for environmental reasons not for fear of accidents.

Biofuels for aircraft seem most unlikely, apart from technical issues, the amount of farm land that would be required to produce the volumes of biofuels looks infeasible.

Electric aircraft are a possibility for short hops to otherwise inaccessible islands and the like, it seems unlikely that batteries will ever have sufficient energy density to cross major oceans.

Jet engines are now a mature technology and significant improvements in fuel economy seem unlikely.

Therefore the only way to significantly reduce carbon dioxide emissions from flying is to fly less, and preferably not at all.
Similar arguments apply to road transport, though at least electric road vehicles are a lot more viable than electric flight.

There are some other possibilities, and one getting a lot of work is sunbeams+CO2=fuel. Mostly it involves making hydrogen first, with a further step (or steps) of reducing the carbon in CO2 to suitable hydrocarbons. Currently inefficient, and messy, thus expensive - but let a load of chemists loose on a problem to play hunt-the-catalyst and those usually improve quite fast. (Scientific paper example here.)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 02:01:35 pm by stuving » Logged
eightonedee
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« Reply #71 on: October 19, 2019, 01:49:57 pm »

Quote
but let a load of chemists loose on a problem to play hunt-the-catalyst and those usually improve quite fast. (Scientific paper example here.)

...and that, Extinction Rebellion will be how we will square the circle about protecting the environment while not devastating our standard of living/driving the least privileged in the world into starvation, not by gluing ourselves to the roofs of tube trains!
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TonyK
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« Reply #72 on: October 19, 2019, 02:12:05 pm »

Yes I could and have given up flying, probably due to watching too many aircrash investigation programs, and being in the aviation industry for 30 years, though,the industry has it's bad days somtimes, i dont think there are any more saftey issues, than UK railways. a good track record for both.

Nervous first time flyer: "Do these crash often?"
Smiling stewardess: "No, sir. Just the once."
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broadgage
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« Reply #73 on: October 19, 2019, 11:56:19 pm »

Yes I could and have given up flying, probably due to watching too many aircrash investigation programs, and being in the aviation industry for 30 years, though,the industry has it's bad days somtimes, i dont think there are any more saftey issues, than UK railways. a good track record for both.

Nervous first time flyer: "Do these crash often?"
Smiling stewardess: "No, sir. Just the once."

Reminds me of some old jokes with which the younger generation may not be familiar.

1) Q is a parachute essential equipment for sky diving ?
     A no, it only essential for sky diving more than once.

2) A trainee flyer in the RAF is being issued all his kit. "6 of these, 3 of those, one of these things, sign here, sign there.
    Parachute mark 29, version 12." "We have had a few problems with these, but don't worry, if it does not work, just bring it back and ask for a new one!"

3) A new pilot is saying goodbye to his nervous mother before making his first solo flight. She says "Now promise me dear, don't go too high up, and don't go too fast"
(for those unfamiliar with flying machines, two of the greatest risks are flying too low and hitting hills, trees, or tall buildings, or flying too slowly resulting in the aeroplane stalling and plummeting. Remember the 12th commandment "keep up thy airspeed, lest the ground riseth up and smites thee".
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Rhydgaled
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« Reply #74 on: October 19, 2019, 11:58:11 pm »

There are some other possibilities, and one getting a lot of work is sunbeams+CO2=fuel. Mostly it involves making hydrogen first, with a further step (or steps) of reducing the carbon in CO2 to suitable hydrocarbons. Currently inefficient, and messy, thus expensive - but let a load of chemists loose on a problem to play hunt-the-catalyst and those usually improve quite fast. (Scientific paper example here.)
Simplifying so I can check if I've understood correctly, the proposal is to take CO2 from the air and turn it into fuel which is then burnt, releasing that CO2 back into the air? Sounds similar to biofuels in that it avoids releasing carbon that is currently 'locked in' as fossil fuels, but using a man-made process instead of photosynthesis. Better than burning fossil fuels of course but energy is still required to make the fuel (biofuel normally also involves energy to dry out the plant matter before it is used as fuel). As far as aviation is concerned though there is altitude to consider, for some reason water vapour from hydrogen-powered ground vehicles is not an issue but released from a plane at altitude it would be a significant greenhouse gas.
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