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Author Topic: Hydrogen train at Long Marston  (Read 632 times)
infoman
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« on: June 20, 2019, 08:42:51 am »

being featured on BBC 1 breakfast news approx 08:55am
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eightf48544
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2019, 10:21:50 am »

How more much electricity do you need to produce hydrogen compare with pumping it direct to the Overhead?
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stuving
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2019, 11:05:31 am »

How more much electricity do you need to produce hydrogen compare with pumping it direct to the Overhead?

There's a bit from the BBC site with a video (one of several) featuring the HydroFlex train. Remarkably little is said about getting the hydrogen ... maybe it's harvested from those magic hydrogen trees?
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CyclingSid
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« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2020, 06:53:16 am »

Wherever the hydrogen is coming from, the train has got out of Long Marston, to Evesham.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-54350046
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mjones
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« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2020, 07:06:12 am »

How more much electricity do you need to produce hydrogen compare with pumping it direct to the Overhead?

A lot more. Manufacturers are a bit coy about publishing the efficiency of their equipment; however it appears to be  55% to 60% for electrolysis and maybe 60% to  70% for the fuel cell. So an overall efficiency of around 40%. It can be argued that hydrogen can be produced when there is surplus renewable energy, that would otherwise go to waste; however there are other technologies being developed for storing energy that have a better efficiency than that.
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Rhydgaled
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« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2020, 11:27:45 am »

I notice the pantograph is still on the roof, unlike on TfW's class 769 electro-diesel 'bi-modes' which are effectively now just DMUs. Does this mean that the hydro-flex can turn off the fuel cell while on an electrified section of the network so it doesn't 'burn' hydrogen under the wires? I ask this because I read a week or two back that there was currently no hydrogen unit planned that had a choice of traction mode - they all had hydrogen power only according to that source.
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----------------------------
Don't DOO it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
stuving
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« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2020, 11:58:34 am »

I notice the pantograph is still on the roof, unlike on TfW's class 769 electro-diesel 'bi-modes' which are effectively now just DMUs. Does this mean that the hydro-flex can turn off the fuel cell while on an electrified section of the network so it doesn't 'burn' hydrogen under the wires? I ask this because I read a week or two back that there was currently no hydrogen unit planned that had a choice of traction mode - they all had hydrogen power only according to that source.

There's certainly no fundamental reason for that - you can design a train's traction system from a kit of electrical parts to suit what the customer asks for. If your hydrogen fuel cell is a bit short on power, you might want to ditch any really heavy bits - a category that includes the 25kV transformer. Alstom have pictures of one with HFC and 25kV; their big problem seems to be deciding what name to give it.

Incidentally, Alstom/Eversholt sneaked in not long ago to grab TOPS class 600 for their Breeze trains, despite their not being any further ahead (AFAICS) then Porterbrook's effort.
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Eversholt Rail and Alstom invest a further ?1 million in Breeze hydrogen train programme

Widnes, 22 July 2020 - Eversholt Rail and Alstom today announce a bold plan to fast-track the hydrogen train industry in the UK with a further ?1 million (over ?1 million) investment in British hydrogen trains, creating an entirely new class of train, the first-ever 600 series.

Taking the Breeze hydrogen train plan to the next level, this major investment means that the Breeze will be ready for early deployment in the UK to meet the Government?s need to decarbonise the rail industry. This investment from Alstom and Eversholt Rail in the UK hydrogen train will underpin other initiatives in the hydrogen sector and will support any subsequent national hydrogen strategy.

Breeze trains will be built at Alstom?s Widnes Transport Technology Centre, which is fast becoming the UK?s premier centre for train modernisation. Widnes will also become Alstom?s worldwide centre of excellence for hydrogen conversion when this project is in series production, creating over 200 high quality engineering jobs in the North West, crucial for the Prime Minister?s levelling-up agenda.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 12:27:20 pm by stuving » Logged
Witham Bobby
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« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2020, 12:10:14 pm »

BBC Radio Hereford and Worcester were, this morning, prattling on about the first hydrogen powered train running from Stratford to Worcester yesterday.

Their "journalism" is so poor that I couldn't be bothered even to drop them a text to say that the rails southwards from Stratford were lifted 40 years ago, and that they must have meant Long Marston to Worcester.

Apparently Grant Schapps was on the train.  Interviewed at Worcester, he spouted a few inanities about zero emissions and how these trains wouldn't pump out diesel like todays diesel trains do

If our present media and our politicos really are the best that's available, then we really are in trouble, hydrogen trains or no.
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eightonedee
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« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2020, 12:40:49 pm »

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How more much electricity do you need to produce hydrogen compare with pumping it direct to the Overhead?

There's a bit from the BBC site with a video (one of several) featuring the HydroFlex train. Remarkably little is said about getting the hydrogen ... maybe it's harvested from those magic hydrogen trees?

I have been trying to find out what the source of hydrogen that so many are pinning their hopes on might be. I saw a little while back that about 50% of the UK's potentially usable hydrogen is produced in Teesside, but I am unclear whether this is as a by-product of an industry currently operating there or because it has to be produced for some local industry, presumably resulting in considerable energy expenditure to do so. It appears that local politicians are getting into a lather of excitement about the prospect of the are becoming a centre of "green" energy technology, and to be fair Teesside does desperately need some new sources of employment.

I think though I would like to know a bit more about the source, and if it is a by-product, what the principal industry is. Bearing in mind the large scale loss of heavy chemical industry for the area in recent decades, it would be unfortunate if the source industry disappeared.

Does anyone know the answer?
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stuving
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« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2020, 12:53:15 pm »

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How more much electricity do you need to produce hydrogen compare with pumping it direct to the Overhead?

There's a bit from the BBC site with a video (one of several) featuring the HydroFlex train. Remarkably little is said about getting the hydrogen ... maybe it's harvested from those magic hydrogen trees?

I have been trying to find out what the source of hydrogen that so many are pinning their hopes on might be. I saw a little while back that about 50% of the UK's potentially usable hydrogen is produced in Teesside, but I am unclear whether this is as a by-product of an industry currently operating there or because it has to be produced for some local industry, presumably resulting in considerable energy expenditure to do so. It appears that local politicians are getting into a lather of excitement about the prospect of the are becoming a centre of "green" energy technology, and to be fair Teesside does desperately need some new sources of employment.

I think though I would like to know a bit more about the source, and if it is a by-product, what the principal industry is. Bearing in mind the large scale loss of heavy chemical industry for the area in recent decades, it would be unfortunate if the source industry disappeared.

Does anyone know the answer?

It seems to be steam methane reforming with carbon recapture and storage. Put another way, if you have a source of methane, and would in the past have burnt it (or put it to some other industrial process use), but propose to add CCS so as to greenify yourselves, this is such a process.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 02:25:29 pm by stuving » Logged
broadgage
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« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2020, 01:43:06 pm »

AFAIK, the main industrial use of hydrogen is in the food industry.
Relatively cheap vegetable oils that are liquid at room temperature may be "hydrogenated" and turned into solid fats that command a higher price. Sold as alternatives to butter, or used as ingredients in baked goods as a cheaper alternative to butter.
This process is falling out of favour as some authorities consider that hydrogenated fats are unhealthy.

Small amounts of hydrogen are used in conjunction with Oxygen to produce intensely hot flames for working metal or glass. Acetylene, propane, or natural gas are much more widely used due to being cheaper and more widely available.

A little hydrogen is used for cooling the large alternators in power stations, it is not consumed like fuel is and only minor replenishment is required to compensate for leakage. Hydrogen is preferred over air as frictional losses are reduced, and heat transfer improved.

A little is used to fill balloons and blimps, too flammable for manned craft, but cheaper than helium for non manned craft.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2020, 01:50:41 pm »

Wherever the hydrogen is coming from, the train has got out of Long Marston, to Evesham.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-54350046

Well done them! It could have a useful future on lines which are difficult to electrify (whether for engineering or political reasons) though OLE surely remains the best choice overall.
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Tuesday had come down through Dundrum and Foster Avenue, brine-fresh from sea-travel, a corn-yellow sun-drench that called forth the bees at an incustomary hour to their bumbling.
broadgage
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« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2020, 10:01:18 pm »

Wherever the hydrogen is coming from, the train has got out of Long Marston, to Evesham.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-54350046

Well done them! It could have a useful future on lines which are difficult to electrify (whether for engineering or political reasons) though OLE surely remains the best choice overall.

It is certainly clever, but I remain very doubtful as to the utility of hydrogen power for trains. It remains bulky, expensive, explosive, and hard to transport and store.
I agree that OLE remains the best choice. Diesel power is the obvious alternative for EXISTING trains already equipped with engines, but battery power should be the second choice for yet to be built stock, with diesel power hopefully restricted to already existing units.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
stuving
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« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2020, 10:23:50 pm »

Wherever the hydrogen is coming from, the train has got out of Long Marston, to Evesham.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-54350046

That train had not only all its hydrogen stuff on board, but at least one Grant Shapps. He announced (on TV) some more support, including:
Quote
The first-ever hydrogen-powered train will run on the UK mainline today in a big step forward towards the UK?s net-zero targets, Transport Secretary Grant Shapps announced today (Wednesday 30 September 2020), visiting the start of trials in Warwickshire.

Today?s trials of the train, known as HydroFLEX, which have been supported with a ?750,000 grant from the Department for Transport (DfT), follow almost 2 years? development work and more than ?1 million of investment by both Porterbrook and the University of Birmingham.

Unlike diesel trains, hydrogen-powered trains do not emit harmful gases, instead using hydrogen and oxygen to produce electricity, water and heat. The ground-breaking technology behind the trains will also be available by 2023 to retrofit current in-service trains to hydrogen, helping decarbonise the rail network and make rail journeys greener and more efficient.

The Transport Secretary also announced the ambition for Tees Valley to become a trailblazing Hydrogen Transport Hub. Bringing together representatives from academia, industry and government to drive forward the UK?s plans to embrace the use of hydrogen as an alternative fuel could create hundreds of jobs while seeing the region become a global leader in the green hydrogen sector.

Transport Secretary Grant Shapps said:

    As we continue on our road to a green recovery, we know that to really harness the power of transport to improve our country ? and to set a global gold standard ? we must truly embed change.

    That?s why I?m delighted that, through our plans to build back better, we?re embracing the power of hydrogen and the more sustainable, greener forms of transport it will bring.

To kick-start this exciting development in Tees Valley, the DfT have commissioned a masterplan to understand the feasibility of the hub and how it can accelerate the UK?s ambitions in hydrogen. The masterplan, expected to be published in January, will pave the way for exploring how green hydrogen could power buses, heavy goods vehicles (HGVs), rail, maritime and aviation transport across the UK.

The aim would then be for the region to become a global leader in industrial research on the subject of hydrogen as a fuel, as well as research and development (R&D) hub for hydrogen transport more generally, attracting hundreds of jobs and boosting the local economy in the process.

Through our ?23 million Hydrogen for Transport Programme, the plans announced today also include ?6.3 million of funding for a green hydrogen refuelling station and 19 hydrogen-powered refuse vehicles in Glasgow, a world-first for the size of the fleet. This will give a post-COVID boost to local economies through the creation of green jobs while also decarbonising the transport network.
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