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Author Topic: Bristol Clean Air Zone proposals  (Read 4658 times)
Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2019, 10:45:05 am »

That's assuming it all goes ahead, of course. There's plenty of time for amendments yet, and the need for an act of parliament to allow for the diesel ban.
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TonyK
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« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2019, 03:04:04 pm »


Whereas enforcement of benefit regulations did/does not involve any showy tech but is probably far more effective.


I wouldn't say that necessarily. When I did it, I had the benefit of a decent radio network with covert stuff both in the car and wearable, some cameras that I used only once, and the biggest database in Europe. It has become more sophisticated since. I shan't go into great detail, but I have seen video recorded by a camera hidden in a plastic water bottle, used to considerable effect, and I think now in the public domain. Record matching between government computer systems has been extremely effective too.

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So in the case of a Clean Air Zone, you might need for instance lots of signs at the perimeter to state boldly and clearly the rules along with bright yellow cameras, and more discreet cameras within the CAZ to track movements of vehicles within it. Or some other sort of dual strategy.

You're also going need to a very clear explanation of the two different zones, along with the time element which is bound to confuse some.

I would imagine that the current camera network would provide some information, but Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) will have to be used to be able to distinguish between fuel types, unless someone is going to develop a brand new sniffer technology. That could open a further can of worms - I recall DVLA showing off their then new first ANPR camera in Bristol, the first able to connect in real time to the various databases. They action took place on the footbridge over Temple Way, pointing towards the M32. The chap was pointing the camera at passing traffic and explaining how it worked, when the reporter asked what the beeping nose was. Uninsured cars, said our man, which astonished the reporter as there was one every three or four seconds. For the record, I am all for pulling such vehicles and their off the road, should permission be given to allow use for general traffic matters, not just the CAZ.
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2019, 05:04:54 pm »


Whereas enforcement of benefit regulations did/does not involve any showy tech but is probably far more effective.


I wouldn't say that necessarily. When I did it, I had the benefit of a decent radio network with covert stuff both in the car and wearable, some cameras that I used only once, and the biggest database in Europe. It has become more sophisticated since. I shan't go into great detail, but I have seen video recorded by a camera hidden in a plastic water bottle, used to considerable effect, and I think now in the public domain. Record matching between government computer systems has been extremely effective too.
Your cameras and so on were discreet. Perhaps it would have been more accurate if I'd said overt enforcement rather than "showy tech".

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So in the case of a Clean Air Zone, you might need for instance lots of signs at the perimeter to state boldly and clearly the rules along with bright yellow cameras, and more discreet cameras within the CAZ to track movements of vehicles within it. Or some other sort of dual strategy.

You're also going need to a very clear explanation of the two different zones, along with the time element which is bound to confuse some.

I would imagine that the current camera network would provide some information, but Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) will have to be used to be able to distinguish between fuel types, unless someone is going to develop a brand new sniffer technology. That could open a further can of worms - I recall DVLA showing off their then new first ANPR camera in Bristol, the first able to connect in real time to the various databases. They action took place on the footbridge over Temple Way, pointing towards the M32. The chap was pointing the camera at passing traffic and explaining how it worked, when the reporter asked what the beeping nose was. Uninsured cars, said our man, which astonished the reporter as there was one every three or four seconds. For the record, I am all for pulling such vehicles and their off the road, should permission be given to allow use for general traffic matters, not just the CAZ.
Yeah, that's the next-layer problem of enforcement. What do you do about the vehicles with false registrations and so on? Detection is not necessarily enforcement.
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TonyK
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« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2019, 06:00:34 pm »


Yeah, that's the next-layer problem of enforcement. What do you do about the vehicles with false registrations and so on? Detection is not necessarily enforcement.

One for somebody above my pay grade to decide. Uninsured vehicle is much more serious that diesel in the wrong place, but you can solve the latter with a letter. Uninsured driver really deserves handcuffs, tow truck and possibly crusher, but takes time that could be spent ungluing people from public transport vehicles.
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eXPassenger
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« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2019, 10:01:52 pm »

I am waiting for the first M5 closure when the stream of vehicles comes up Portway and turns right down the A370.  All the diesel cars will be illegal and the lorries and coaches will be charged.  They will have to remove the Plimsoll bridge from the scheme.

The documentation makes no reference to the effect of the scheme on through traffic.
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« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2019, 08:45:28 pm »

Hello.. new around here.  Forgive my ignorance, but it looks like there is no way to be dropped off or park at Temple Meads during the hours that diesel cars are banned.  Is that really sensible  Huh
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2019, 09:15:09 pm »

Hello.. new around here.  Forgive my ignorance, but it looks like there is no way to be dropped off or park at Temple Meads during the hours that diesel cars are banned.  Is that really sensible  Huh

Welcome to the forum, 2+4!

There are so many eccentricities in this scheme that it seems hard to believe that it will not be greatly altered before it is implemented.
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« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2019, 01:27:02 pm »

Hello.. new around here.  Forgive my ignorance, but it looks like there is no way to be dropped off or park at Temple Meads during the hours that diesel cars are banned.  Is that really sensible  Huh

Welcome to the forum, 2+4!

There are so many eccentricities in this scheme that it seems hard to believe that it will not be greatly altered before it is implemented.

Bristol need Westminster to pass legislation to permit fuel discrimination.

I can't see anyone in Westminster lifting a finger to support it, it's such a massive can of worms. I've already seen a number of tweets pointing out that a tiny diesel Citroen will be illegal but a hulking petrol muscle car will not.

Residents' Parking and anti-car policies were one of the things that saw George Ferguson thrown out, Marvin is going the same way. Arguably, despite his party, the Conservative candidate would have a fair chance of winning just by touring "White Van Man" Bristol and repeating a mantra of "no diesel ban, forget the western harbour, the arena can sort itself out, more money for schools, removing graffiti and decent social services for your elderly relatives"
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TonyK
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« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2019, 05:23:40 pm »

Hello.. new around here.  Forgive my ignorance, but it looks like there is no way to be dropped off or park at Temple Meads during the hours that diesel cars are banned.  Is that really sensible  Huh

Welcome indeed, 2+4, and a good spot. There does seem to be great  potential for mucking everything up, and applying the Law of Unintended Consequences. Some of these may be ironed out, as Red Squirrel says, probably when someone points out the irony of not being able to drive to a station in a diesel car to catch a diesel train.


Bristol need Westminster to pass legislation to permit fuel discrimination.

I can't see anyone in Westminster lifting a finger to support it, it's such a massive can of worms. I've already seen a number of tweets pointing out that a tiny diesel Citroen will be illegal but a hulking petrol muscle car will not.

Residents' Parking and anti-car policies were one of the things that saw George Ferguson thrown out, Marvin is going the same way. Arguably, despite his party, the Conservative candidate would have a fair chance of winning just by touring "White Van Man" Bristol and repeating a mantra of "no diesel ban, forget the western harbour, the arena can sort itself out, more money for schools, removing graffiti and decent social services for your elderly relatives"

Residents' Parking Zones aren't as unpopular as you assume, Noggin. Those who used to clog up residential streets as a free car park seem to have managed to find a way to work since that option was removed from them, to the delight of those households within the RPZ who own one or fewer cars. There are problems around some MetroBust stops and noticeably more cars parked in the daytime on the edges of the RPZ, but the forecasts of widespread redundancies, closures of businesses and plagues of locusts have not come to pass. The "more money for schools" promise on the side of any election bus would have to be tempered by the penalties Bristol will suffer if clean air policies are not implemented, which is probably why Marvin had to introduce the idea now, weith only months remaining to the next Mayoral election. He might be following a strategy of using watering down of the scheme as a vote-winning tool, which could be dodgy. It would be nice to hear of some carrot to balance the stick, in the form of real improvements to public transport in the city, rather than the probable diet of extra MetroBust.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 05:40:01 pm by TonyK » Logged

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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2019, 06:10:14 pm »

I can't see anyone in Westminster lifting a finger to support it, it's such a massive can of worms. I've already seen a number of tweets pointing out that a tiny diesel Citroen will be illegal but a hulking petrol muscle car will not.

It does seem eccentric that Euro 6 vehicles are included in this ban. Surely this will change? The London ULEZ allows petrol cars of Euro 4 and above, and Euro 6 diesels. That seems sensible.

Residents' Parking and anti-car policies were one of the things that saw George Ferguson thrown out, Marvin is going the same way.

Those of us who have the misfortune to live just outside the Residents' Parking Zones are spitting teeth that populist politics won the day before the outer zones could be established. Experts - that is to say, people who have a better understanding of how things work than the average voter - reckoned that if the zone was too small, people living on the (reduced) periphery would have to put up with a disproportionate amount of displaced parking. This has proved to be the case.

As an aside, isn't 'anti-car' just another way of saying 'pro-people'? I like people, me!

Arguably, despite his party, the Conservative candidate would have a fair chance of winning just by touring "White Van Man" Bristol and repeating a mantra of "no diesel ban, forget the western harbour, the arena can sort itself out, more money for schools, removing graffiti and decent social services for your elderly relatives"

I suppose we should never say never, but I can't really imagine a world in which a Conservative could become Mayor of Bristol...

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TonyK
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« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2019, 07:01:08 pm »


It does seem eccentric that Euro 6 vehicles are included in this ban. Surely this will change? The London ULEZ allows petrol cars of Euro 4 and above, and Euro 6 diesels. That seems sensible.

This could be the concession to be made to get everyone saying what a fair-minded man Marvin is, in the run-up to the May hustings.

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Those of us who have the misfortune to live just outside the Residents' Parking Zones are spitting teeth that populist politics won the day before the outer zones could be established. Experts - that is to say, people who have a better understanding of how things work than the average voter - reckoned that if the zone was too small, people living on the (reduced) periphery would have to put up with a disproportionate amount of displaced parking. This has proved to be the case.

Proof of what I said, from someone affected by it!

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I suppose we should never say never, but I can't really imagine a world in which a Conservative could become Mayor of Bristol...

It does stretch the imagination somewhat, especially in these current times.

The earlier point of national government not sanctioning such a plan is a moot one. The outgoing government used to be Conservative, but drifted on the rudderless ship of no overall control for its latter days. If a Conservative majority is returned next month, then once the major elephant has been shooed out of the room, the newly strengthened leader can turn his attention to what to do with dissenting cities. If a majority government from a different party is returned, it can turn its thoughts to how it should help its friends in the provinces. I doubt very much that either would do anything to stop this. Firstly, it could affect the party nationally, unless it does nothing. Secondly, it affirms commitment to localism. Thirdly, it would stir up the environmental lobby again, with people stuck to public transport everywhere you look. Fourthly, and most importantly, it provides a laboratory in which to conduct an experiment, possibly developing national policy further.

Bristol isn't alone in this endeavour - Birmingham, with just over one and a half times urban Bristol's population and more than double the wider metropolitan area population, is rolling out a similar project. That will include petrol vehicles in the controls, with money raised being used specifically for public transport. Birmingham has the advantage of more developed transport infrastructure and governance, with Transport for West Midlands in charge, eight distinct commuter rail lines linking 70 stations, a tram between New Street and Wolverhampton, and buses, some operated under franchise. It has also done a much better job of planning and explaining its ideas, resulting in more support and less opposition than is to be seen in Bristol. Maybe DfT want to see how two schemes, one good and one hair-brained, work out.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 08:36:12 pm by Red Squirrel » Logged

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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2019, 04:43:50 pm »

Meanwhile:

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CITY COUNCIL SPENDS ALMOST £3M ON FLEET OF NEW DIESEL VEHICLES

Bristol City Council has spent almost £3m on a new fleet of diesel vehicles that would potentially have to pay to enter its own clean air zone.

The consultation on the clean air zone began on July 1, just weeks before the 12-month vehicle contracts worth £2.7m were signed.

On July 26, the city council purchased replacement vehicles from Toyota and Renault under a plan to replace old vehicles and purchase 342 new ones in order to save £2.3m.

The council says that of the 135 vehicles replaced to date, 19 have been electric, 64 diesel and 52 petrol. 207 are still to be replaced, with no fuel type specification yet agreed although 10 more electric vehicles are being tendered for.

Council-owned buildings including City Hall and the 100 Temple Street offices are both within the proposed new clean air zone. Private vehicles would be banned if the council’s plans are approved with commercial vehicles facing a charge.

The electric vehicle proposals were originally signed off by former cabinet member Fi Hance, just weeks before Marvin Rees replaced her with Kye Dudd – signifying the end of the mayor’s rainbow cabinet of cross-party politicians.

[article continues...]
Source Bristol 24/7

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« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2019, 05:54:22 pm »

But if the payments to enter the zone go the council then it won't actual cost them anything. Other than the complete loss of credibility and goodwill with the electorate of course.
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2019, 06:34:58 pm »

I have a suspicion the council expect the legislation necessary to implement a ban by fuel type will not be passed, giving them another year or so to come with yet another plan.
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TonyK
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« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2019, 07:08:57 pm »

I have a suspicion the council expect the legislation necessary to implement a ban by fuel type will not be passed, giving them another year or so to come with yet another plan.

A dangerous game! How funny would it be if the new government (let's assume for the moment that it isn't Liberal Democrat) said "Like it! What a radical scheme you lefty Malay-loving Marxists* have come up with, which will surely get Bristol some sort of award or a visit from a Swede. Go on then, let's see how it works out!". Not impossible, because who in their right minds would get in the way of local policies for local people? Plus it is one less distraction for the new government to have to deal with, frankly. Being fair, it would be a very useful experiment for a national government of any party to let run, and watch. If it works well, they can say "It works well, and we let it happen! Aren't we good?" And if it doesn't work out well, they can say "They told us that they knew what they were doing, like when they begged us for MetroBust. Not our fault, but we did warn you. We have asked Malaysia to extradite the mayor, and we will hang him out to dry when they do."

This localism is a funny old business, fraught with peril.

* Marvin Rees, the Bristol Mayor, isn't, for the benefit of outsiders, much of a Marxist, not unless it's Groucho. Having won the gig from George Ferguson, he acquiesced in the matter of MetroBust, started spending a lot of time in Kuala Lumpur, and scrubbed the Arenal, the long awaited 12,000 seater venue next door to Temple Meads with lots of transport on the doorstep with planning permission and funding in place. His favoured option is for a new Arenal to be built in the Brabazon hangar at the former Filton airfield by the new owners YTL, noted for never having sold a company that they bought. YTL is Malaysian, based in Kuala Lumpur. YTL owns Wessex Water, whose chairman Colin Skellett was the Chairman of the West of England Local Enterprise Partnership that bulldozed through the £230 million MetroBust scheme that enabled the airfield to be sold for development and gain permission for housing, and which will build an Arenal free of charge on the site. Colin Skellett stood down from the LEP that approved the transport blueprint that allowed the new housing to be built to avoid any conflict of interest when he became the non-executive director of YTL Land and Property UK, which owns the former Filton Airfield, which will build the new housing enabled by the transport blueprint.

That last option of a free Arenal is subject to proper road links being provided by the local authorities at a cost of millions. Bristol City Council will then benefit from business rates after the accountants have finished with the paperwork, as they do from Facebook and Amazon, instead of benefiting long term from the undoubted profits that would have accrued.

I don't know what to make of it all, except to say that I am instinctively against Marvin's stance on transport and the Arenal. I have never met him, although I have friends who know and like him. He is a member of a church I used to frequent in Bristol, so should be kosher (no pun intended) but his actions as Mayor seem to be indulgent of others in a way that has been shown in the past to be self-serving. Like Marvin, I have been to Kuala Lumpur, and I can tell you that is no place to search for answers to airborne pollution. It is hot, smokey, and full of concrete. It has a wonderful metro system, but the bulk of travel is by private car, and so not an appropriate model for Bristol. This leads me to ask if anyone else knows what Marvin is - bad, mad, or genius? Driven by a desire to show that he can ruin a city so that he can go on to be a MP and ruin a country? That last seems unlikely. I met George Ferguson a couple of times, who had some very good ideas and a few bad ones, but who took the flak for a few policies that saw him binned, but which have not been rolled back by the next administration. He at least had not wish for national politics.

The current Prime Minister was formerly a mayor of a leading city, but a number of mayors of leading authorities were formerly members of Parliament, and seem to be making more difference in that latter job, tossing aside the party label to actually do some good.

I don't want to breach the "no politics" rule here, and I hope that I don't. If I infer any criticism of Marvin, it isn't because of his political credentials. I am sure that the other parties could make just as bad a job of running the city as he has done, possibly worse, and I am curious as to whether his approach is one of simply reaching out to foreign investors, or more dangerous. 

I have just spent a few days in Manchester, which confirmed my ideas about how public transport should be done, but I have solved my Bristol issues by moving to Devon.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 08:38:04 pm by TonyK » Logged

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