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Author Topic: Permitted Route in Kent ??  (Read 5941 times)
Fourbee
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« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2019, 16:21:23 »

The double back between Clapham and Victoria might be an issue:

http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide
From Easements (Section E):
700013 Tickets with the following route codes may be used to double back between Clapham Junction and London Victoria. (London, London Not Underground, Not Valid on HS1 (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel), AP London Woking)

Personally I'd save the £16 odd quid going via Barnham on the Southern priced flow with singles as needed bridging the ends. Journey time might be slightly longer.

Edit: Having said the above, the Maidstone Stns +Any Permitted ticket does allow the double back in the journey planner so it may not be anything of concern. I cannot see anything that specifically allows it though, but journey planners and the routing guide are not necessarily in sync.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 17:03:44 by Fourbee » Logged
jamestheredengine
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« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2019, 21:26:55 »

The double back between Clapham and Victoria might be an issue:

There isn't a double-back there: Victoria trains on the Chatham Line don't pass through Clapham Junction.

That's actually a really weirdly worded easement, as if you're doing something on the Brighton side (say, Epsom to Gatwick Airport), then Any Permitted is valid via Victoria, Not London via Clapham Junction and Not Clapham Junction either via Dorking or by doing weird things in Croydon/Selhurst/Norwood. It's on the Chatham side that one gets the "London", "London Not Underground", and most obviously "Not Valid on HS1 (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel)" routes, but they don't serve Clapham Junction anyway.
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Trowres
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« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2019, 23:12:33 »

I think that if the OJP (Online Journey Planner) doesn't provide a return fare, it is because it thinks the route is not valid as a through journey; it will offer the route as a combination of singles, but make it very hard to see which combination of singles it is offering.

For this interesting journey, OJP is not offering many valid journeys via any route; everything is via St Pancras but most suggestions are via Salisbury which apparently is not valid.

I think that's mixing up two distinct things. The OJP can cope with two singles as an alternative to a return; it has to for advance fares. That''s why it offers routes for both halves separately, but you choice of the outward fare alters what it offers on the return. In some ways doing research - looking at the offers without making a selection - makes it look confusing. For checking permitted routes and nothing else it's simpler to request a single, but obviously that tells you nothing about timing restrictions. 

When it finds a journey (a sequence of trains) with a route it thinks is not permitted, it puts up that annoying "Multiple Tickets Required for Journey" flag. It doesn't tell you which options that applies to - sometimes there's no price, sometimes there's a price that looks like only part-route, and maybe sometimes it adds the part-route prices. The OJP is a weird and (sometimes) wonderful thing but I wouldn't accuse it of being consistently consistent.

But it's true this example is a complicated one. There are two valid routeing points at each end (so says the NRG's checker), and a total of twenty map combinations plus London routeing.

But to recap - before opening the NRG, any direct service is permitted (there are none), and any route with a lower specific fare (again, none as only Any Permitted fares exist). (You may recall that when discussing walking legs around Farnborough there were fares such as "via Farnborough North".) And the shortest route by track distance is also always permitted, but I wish you fun trying to find it! I guess it's a scenic route across southern England, with many changes, so a lot of work would be needed. That calculation cannot, AFAIK (as far as I know), include walking legs, or else I suspect that Tonbridge/Redhill/Guildford/Farnboroughs/Salisbury might be the one.

The routeing point for Warminster is Salisbury or Westbury, and in both cases the mapped routes are from London, one option from Waterloo and two from Paddington.  Plus there's an oddity running from south wales to Waterloo through Warminster, but listed under Westbury. At the other end the routeing point is Strood or Tonbridge, and again all the options are to London - but there are more possibilities (2 and 4). None of them includes St Pancras, but that is covered under the London routeing. Finally, there can be a third map in the middle, always the one from Waterloo to Reading or Woking.

But with all these possibilities, during off-peak hours most journeys offered use HS1 (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) - quick and simple. Once timing restrictions kick in, more interesting journeys do come up - seven changes, for example. That's a result of the OJP trying very hard to find an off-peak option at 08:00, and succeeding. But it is odd that so many journeys offered don't match any of the permitted routes.

To return to the original question, forcing that walk at Maidstone gives only multi-ticket quotes, meaning the OJP thinks it's not permitted. But then it's not using either valid routeing point, so it wouldn't be, and I think that rule the OJP does follow.



What I was trying to say was that if you try testing the route validity with a single journey, the OJP will automatically suggest multiple tickets if the whole journey isn't a permitted route, but that the OJP display doesn't make it obvious in which cases it has done this (yest it comes up with the irritating multiple tickets / grey fog, but this may apply to some but not all of the journeys suggested). Under the fare on the right-hand side it lists only one of the multiple ticket types. ( I have just noticed that clicking on the "other tickets" link, in addition to displaying other types of ticket available for the journey, also displays the multiple tickets information (albeit with the price but not the origin and destination of each ticket!)

When you try to select a return journey for a non-permitted route, OJP says "no return fares available" and offers only single tickets (a pair for each way, usually, although I broke the OJP when testing this). One should be able to buy a pair of return tickets for the journey (the same intermediate station as OJP supplies for the singles) but this seems to be beyond OJP.

If OJP decides on a range of permitted and non-permitted routes for a return journey, fares are only displayed for the permitted routes (although sometimes these will not be displayed if there's not a return journey option via the same route during the time period selected).

After all that I think what we need is a permitted-route-finder app!
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Clan Line
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« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2019, 20:44:51 »

We'll see what happens on the train tomorrow........................

Well................... for a start the 0949 WMN» (Warminster - next trains) to SAL was cancelled .......

Well..................it wasn't cancelled according to GWR (Great Western Railway) - as they state in their rejection of her delay claim !!!  It wasn't cancelled because there was never a train scheduled to run at that time - according to them !!
Screen shots of RTT» (Real Time Trains - website) and CIS (Customer Information System) now winging towards GWR, showing that this non-existent train (2Z30) was scheduled and was cancelled !

Do they reject ALL claims as a matter of course ? has some bean-counter calculated that x% will "give up and go away" after the first rejection ??
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