Qn.3 for Mark Hopwood: Trolley service on IETs

[whole diary]

[broadgage]

It was a well planned and thought through change which despite being logistically challenging is starting to prove beyond doubt that it is the right strategy on these very long trains and will prove to be highly successful.

Well it is very strange then that on other web fora it has been admitted by well known insiders that the market research carried out that returned preference for trollies rather than buffets was carried out after the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) signed off the trains.

Welcome, also reported on THIS forum, that the survey showing the alleged preference for a trolley was done AFTER the new trains were specified without buffets.
No doubt then as to what result was required from the survey.
The purpose of such surveys is to justify decisions already taken.

This thread http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15945.0 discusses the downgrade from buffets to just a trolley, and also contains promises about the greatly improved trolley service that was promised.
These promises have become future aspirations, that are still being worked on after a couple of years.

[grahame]

It was a well planned and thought through change which despite being logistically challenging is starting to prove beyond doubt that it is the right strategy on these very long trains and will prove to be highly successful.

Well it is very strange then that on other web fora it has been admitted by well known insiders that the market research carried out that returned preference for trollies rather than buffets was carried out after the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) signed off the trains.

Hello fintan_stack and welcome to the forum - your first post and a brave one.  Buffet v Trolley seems at times to be as emotive here as Remain v Brexit!!

A survey / market research undertaken after a decision has been taken stands the risk of being branded as being biased / designed to have an outcome in line with the decision (as member Broadgage suggests in his post that has been made while I have been writing), though in practise I doubt whether a decision taken somewhere in Horseferry Road would have changed the actual views of passengers from Cardiff or Taunton to London overnight.   

I would also suspect that there wouldn't have been a single isolated piece of research - rather there would have been reports and evaluations based and perhaps other researches over a period - the whole business of on-train catering has been going on a while - the first restaurant car dating back to 1879.   I've not been able to date the first buffet car - it would really require a corridor train - but they've been around rather a long time too.  So a lot of experience too prior to a decision.

[MarkHopwood]

Whilst I am reassured that steps are being taken to improve the trolley service, why were suitable staff not recruited initially ? The downgrade to trolley catering was known about in plenty of time to recruit staff.
We have had nearly two years of no trolley/static trolley/trolley in other half of the train/trolley hiding in first.

Why not get it right from the beginning?

I think Mark hinted at the reason(s) earlier in the thread

I accept the transition has been tougher than we would have liked but progress is being made to solve the issues we face and our new terms and conditions for catering staff is making it easier to cover shifts, especially at weekends.

We do not see the introduction of the trolley as a downgrade in the service although I accept that there is work to be done to deliver the service consistently.  We are working through the issues and trying to resolve these as quickly as possible. 

[MarkHopwood]

Good to see the question made it to the shortlist - I can only imagine the conspiracy theory accusations that would have been levelled otherwise.

Anyway, no chance of the return of a buffet, and trolley service provision promised to improve in both content and availability.  Bacon rolls and filter coffee were being provided from the trolley on my last IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) trip.

Let’s keep a watching brief on the trolley situation, but move on from buffet discussions!

Thank you, I agree we should focus on the trolleys and improving this service.  Pleased to hear you had a good service last time you travelled on an IET.

[MarkHopwood]

Took my wife and daughter up to London yesterday (and hence missed the 'live event') for just their second IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) experience.  Up on the Golden Hind from Exeter and back on the 19:03.

Their first experience (in both directions) was in a 2x5-car which had a trolley 'in the other unit'.  Yesterday, both services were 9-car units and within 10 minutes of joining the train, the rather apologetic call of 'anyone for refreshments' was heard in our carriage. Sadly, neither trolley had hot water available and the selection of food was restricted to packets of crisps and biscuits.

It was extremely good planning to visit Pumpkins before boarding!

Very disappointing to hear that your trip with your wife and daughter was not what it should have been.  Helpful to know the services you travelled on so I can investigate.

[MarkHopwood]

Despite the assurances offered by Mark Hopwood, I am very doubtful indeed about the trolley service being significantly and consistently improved. And then provided reliably in both portions of a train, even on Sundays.
They had a couple of years to recruit staff and make the trolley service work properly, and failed miserably.
We have heard very similar re-assurances before, from a previous meet the manager session on these forums.

Whilst GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) have said in effect "no way" regarding buffets, the next operator might be better in this respect.

We are working through services, reviewing the plan to ensure we have sufficient equipment and staff to run a robust and consistent trolley service.  It is taking time but I am confident we can deliver this.

[MarkHopwood]

Whilst GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) have said in effect "no way" regarding buffets, the next operator might be better in this respect.

Unlikely given the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) hand in all of this. But maybe I detect an agreement with IndustryInsider that we move on from the comparison with buffets until such a time as a new franchise is on the cards, else the subject risks being staler than a 1970s BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) ham sandwich.

I agree.  We have come so far already and it is important we look to the future and focus on improving the customer experience and the elements that are within our control, such as the trolley.

[broadgage]

Even I would reluctantly accept the trolley service (though still considering this to be a downgrade over a buffet) If it met all the following conditions.

Provided reliably in both portions of a 5+5 train. (as promised two years ago)
Two trolleys on a 9 car unless the train is very lightly loaded. (as promised two years ago)
Trolley to pass through at least every 30 minutes, more frequently if possible. Even a 29 minute wait is still worse than walking to the buffet.
To reliably stock CHILLED beer*, spirits* with a choice of mixers*, ICE CUBES* chilled fruit juice, sandwiches, HOT bacon* rolls and at least one other hot snack. REAL COFFEE.

Trolley to be available throughout that part of the journey for which it is advertised. No more going through once, and then hiding for the rest of the journey.
No more static trolleys except during conditions of exceptional crowding, which should be rare.

Even in the unlikely case of these conditions being met, I would still consider the trolley to be a downgrade if compared to be proper buffet.
However we must move with the times and accept that a certain amount of downgrading is unavoidable with new trains. The present degree of downgrading does seem excessive to me.

*I mention here only MY favourites, other products are needed for more general tastes.

[Celestial]

Trolley to pass through at least every 30 minutes, more frequently if possible. Even a 29 minute wait is still worse than walking to the buffet.

Apart from the limited selection (and good to hear that bacon rolls are back on the agenda), my main grumble is when, on a 90 min journey, the trolley comes through for the first time 10 mins before I am getting off. I'm not sure what the answer to that is, as the busier the trolley is, the longer it will take to pass through the train.  On a 9 car set maybe one moving and one static trolley is the answer, with announcements to let people know.  That's probably not realistic on a 5 car set, but I guess on those they get through the train quicker.

[JayMac]

There is always the option, excepting crowded services, of going and finding the trolley oneself.

Of course, absent of location announcements, you have the coin toss of which direction to set off in.

[Celestial]

There is always the option, excepting crowded services, of going and finding the trolley oneself.

Of course, absent of location announcements, you have the coin toss of which direction to set off in.

That's an interesting point. I have always felt that going to find the trolley is unlikely to be helpful in general, as having several people crowding around as it tries to make it's way through the train is going to cause unnecessary congestion and delay it's journey even more.  It might never get beyond half way down the first carriage if everyone were to do it. Interested in what others think though as to whether it's the "done" thing.

[johnneyw]

For myself, the "etiquette" would be to wait for the trolley unless there's an onboard announcement that the trolley is staying put in a particular coach. The weakness in this is that it rather relies on an announcement always being made it the trolley is static.

[SandTEngineer]

....and what then about the security implications of passengers leaving their luggage unattended whilst searching for the trolley.  Are there not constant PA^▸ (Public Address) reminders about that?  And yes, I know the same issue arises with a fixed buffet.  Much better that the trolley comes to you.  I think that MarkH hinted that things will improve.  My last two trips had the trolley visit at least twice during the three hour journey.

[JayMac]

I've made relatively few long distance IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) journeys since their introduction. A combination of personal circumstances and where I've lived in recent years.

I have though sought out the trolley on a couple of occasions. Once it was static (no announcement), and the other time it was mid carriage and I waited in a vestibule so as not to further block the aisle or inconvenience the trolley staff mid carriage.

A consistent well stocked trolley service is perfectly acceptable to me. I understand the reasons and explanations given by Mark Hopwood.

What I would like to see though is a step change in Pullman provision. Here's my thoughts on that as posted on another forum...

Take the entire time First Group have been majority operators of the Great(er) Western franchise. In 1999 there were 11 breakfast Pullman services, 11 lunch/dinner Pullman services, and 6 Pullman Bistro services. A total of 28 weekday services offering full restaurant menus. And that total was in a timetable when fewer long distance services were operated to and from Paddington. Today there are 10 Pullman services.

Think what could be done today with the uniform fleet of fully equipped kitchens that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) have at their disposal.

Buffets are out. That's perfectly acceptable to me. I understand that the trolleys are showing modest profit. Now let's see a full service restaurant offering across a couple dozen services once again. Push the Pullman brand, advertise, innovate. Get those off peak 1st Class seats filled by offering a combined ticket/meal product.

If GWR need a chef, I can dust off my whites. I'll have to let the trousers and jackets out, but the hat still fits!

[broadgage]

I would certainly be in favour of re-instating more of the Pullmans that never re appeared after being "temporarily" withdrawn after the Hatfield accident.

We keep hearing about the advantages of a uniform train fleet all with kitchens, so let more use be made of these facilities.

I remain far from happy at the ban on buffets, progress I know but still regrettable.