Train Graphic
Great Western Passengers' Forum Great Western Coffee Shop - [home] and [about]
Read about the forum [here].
Register and contribute [here] - it's free.
*** Make campaign for the widest possible support and acceptance - [here]
 25/09/2019 - WWRUG / Transport Focus
03/10/2019 - ACoRP Community Rail Awards
05/10/2019 - WSR shuttle last for 2019
10/10/2019 - IET Signalling Talk - Reading
16/10/2019 - MRUG meeting
16/10/2019 - ACoRP board nominations close
Random Image
Train Running @GWR Twitter Acronyms/Abbreviations Station Comparator Rail news GWR co. site Site Style 1 2 3 4 Chat on off
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
September 22, 2019, 01:51:00 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most liked recent subjects
[56] IETs into passenger service from 16 Oct 2017 and subsequent pe...
[38] Templecombe
[38] St.Erth Park and Ride
[34] No steam to Ryde (for a number of years)
[30] 21st September 2019 - RailFuture National Conference, in Brist...
[28] Out of Office quiz - September 2019
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
Author Topic: Cotswold Line - new December timetable  (Read 3530 times)
Robin Summerhill
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 419


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2019, 08:03:26 pm »

Good to know that route knowledge for CrossCountry drivers is more important than London - Worcester / Malvern / Hereford passengers.

And, of course, turning the knife in the wound, these XCs through Shrub Hill without stopping. In particular, there's an early morning Cardiff run (0500 New Street, 0603 Cheltenham) that could and should provide a decent early Worcester-Cardiff opportunity.

But of course that would result in XC getting a cut of GWR's Worcester to Cheltenham revenue.

Which is why it probably won't happen.

Welcome to the modern railway...
Logged
JontyMort
Full Member
***
Posts: 96


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2019, 11:04:30 pm »

Good to know that route knowledge for CrossCountry drivers is more important than London - Worcester / Malvern / Hereford passengers.

And, of course, turning the knife in the wound, these XCs through Shrub Hill without stopping. In particular, there's an early morning Cardiff run (0500 New Street, 0603 Cheltenham) that could and should provide a decent early Worcester-Cardiff opportunity.

But of course that would result in XC getting a cut of GWR's Worcester to Cheltenham revenue.


That would be the revenue generated from the current shocking service, I presume.

I'm always struck by the fact that on the Birmingham-Bristol main line the service is geared entirely to operating convenience (i.e. serving Cheltenham) rather than the importance of the two county towns, Worcester and Gloucester. Oh well.
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 26531



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2019, 08:21:14 am »

I'm always struck by the fact that on the Birmingham-Bristol main line the service is geared entirely to operating convenience (i.e. serving Cheltenham) rather than the importance of the two county towns, Worcester and Gloucester. Oh well.

I'm not so sure if it's operating convenience just to serve Cheltenham Spa, or Cross Country services looking out for the longer distance traffic -  Bristol to Birmingham, which would be slowed down if it dipped into Gloucester and / or Worcester on a regular basis.

Bristol, Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa to Worcester services are indeed very thin indeed, and there are a number of other "could do better" cases along the way or just off it.  But I suspect it would need another hourly service added to the current mix to avoid damaging something as you improved something else.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Vice Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, on the board of TravelWatch SouthWest and of RailFuture
Robin Summerhill
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 419


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2019, 10:48:26 am »

I'm not so sure if it's operating convenience just to serve Cheltenham Spa, or Cross Country services looking out for the longer distance traffic -  Bristol to Birmingham, which would be slowed down if it dipped into Gloucester and / or Worcester on a regular basis.

Very much so. In the "olden days" (1960s) many Midland line trains did indeed run via Worcester. They all of course ran via Gloucester because in those days there was no reversal required as they ran into Gloucester Eastgate via Tuffley Junction. The Worcester diversion put a par for the course 30 minutes on the journey. I am sure that would be improved upon these days, but there would nevertheless be a time penalty involved.

As an aside for our younger readers, Gloucester Eastgate was initially chosen to be Gloucester's only station, and the long platform at the existing Gloucester station (Gloucester Central in those days) was extended to join it to Eastgate allowing the Central station to close and the area of railway land between the two to be redeveloped.

It was Gloucester City Council that spearheaded the change of policy to make Central Gloucester's only station, because traffic congestion at the level crossings on the Eastgate route was becoming a major issue, especially at Barton Street which was one of the main roads into the city.
Logged
JontyMort
Full Member
***
Posts: 96


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2019, 01:16:09 pm »

I'm not so sure if it's operating convenience just to serve Cheltenham Spa, or Cross Country services looking out for the longer distance traffic -  Bristol to Birmingham, which would be slowed down if it dipped into Gloucester and / or Worcester on a regular basis.

Very much so. In the "olden days" (1960s) many Midland line trains did indeed run via Worcester. They all of course ran via Gloucester because in those days there was no reversal required as they ran into Gloucester Eastgate via Tuffley Junction. The Worcester diversion put a par for the course 30 minutes on the journey. I am sure that would be improved upon these days, but there would nevertheless be a time penalty involved.

I agree that ship sailed long ago - though Lickey line trains were still serving Worcester until at least the early 80s IIRC.

Nevertheless, the point that Cheltenham enjoys a privileged service purely by geographical accident remains valid. Putting it another way, if Worcestershire Parkway is to work at all then the idea seems worth exploring that (shock horror!) some of Cheltenham's half-hourly stops on XC's Brum-Bristol service could be dropped in favour of a stop at Parkway instead.

Quote
It was Gloucester City Council that spearheaded the change of policy to make Central Gloucester's only station...

...thus removing Gloucester from a main line. Well done that Council!
Logged
Robin Summerhill
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 419


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2019, 11:29:54 pm »

Quote from: JontyMort
Quote from: Robin Summerhill
It was Gloucester City Council that spearheaded the change of policy to make Central Gloucester's only station...

...thus removing Gloucester from a main line. Well done that Council!

You edited out the reasons and, in the context of the day, they were important.

There were four level crossings between Gloucester Eastgate and Tuffley Junction, the most important of which was immediately south of Eastgate station at Barton Street. This crossing in particular was causing traffic chaos in Gloucester, not only because it crossed the main road into the city from Stroud, but also because the immediate proximity of the station to the gates meant they needed to be kept closed whilst southbound trains were held for station duties.

In the context of the time (early 1970s), railways were seen as yesterday's form of transport that few people wanted to use any more. If Eastgate closed, trains could still run to Bristol from Central, albeit with a reversal. Alternatively passengers for Bristol could change at Cheltenham. At the time it was not seen as a major issue.

Whilst you might argue, with 20/20 hindsight, that closing Eastgate was a bad move from the point of view of railway connectivity, it was not seen as such at the time. And moving forward to where we are now, there is an hourly local stopping service to Bristol calling at Cam & Dursley, Yate, Parkway and Filton Abbey Wood (a frequency that could only have been dreamed about when all the local stations were still open and the route was via Mangotsfield) and an additional, at least hourly, fast service to Bristol is available by changing at Cheltenham.

There is also an hourly service from Gloucester to Brum, with plenty of additional services northbound to Cheltenham only or to Worcester/ Malvern. The overall service available in the days pre-1975 was a mere shadow of what is on offer today.

Logged
JontyMort
Full Member
***
Posts: 96


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2019, 09:56:47 pm »

Quote from: JontyMort
Quote from: Robin Summerhill
It was Gloucester City Council that spearheaded the change of policy to make Central Gloucester's only station...

...thus removing Gloucester from a main line. Well done that Council!

You edited out the reasons and, in the context of the day, they were important.

There were four level crossings between Gloucester Eastgate and Tuffley Junction, the most important of which was immediately south of Eastgate station at Barton Street. This crossing in particular was causing traffic chaos in Gloucester, not only because it crossed the main road into the city from Stroud, but also because the immediate proximity of the station to the gates meant they needed to be kept closed whilst southbound trains were held for station duties.

In the context of the time (early 1970s), railways were seen as yesterday's form of transport that few people wanted to use any more. If Eastgate closed, trains could still run to Bristol from Central, albeit with a reversal. Alternatively passengers for Bristol could change at Cheltenham. At the time it was not seen as a major issue.

Whilst you might argue, with 20/20 hindsight, that closing Eastgate was a bad move from the point of view of railway connectivity, it was not seen as such at the time. And moving forward to where we are now, there is an hourly local stopping service to Bristol calling at Cam & Dursley, Yate, Parkway and Filton Abbey Wood (a frequency that could only have been dreamed about when all the local stations were still open and the route was via Mangotsfield) and an additional, at least hourly, fast service to Bristol is available by changing at Cheltenham.

There is also an hourly service from Gloucester to Brum, with plenty of additional services northbound to Cheltenham only or to Worcester/ Malvern. The overall service available in the days pre-1975 was a mere shadow of what is on offer today.



An interesting analysis, Robin. Thanks for posting.
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page