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Author Topic: Effective fare changes resulting from timetable changes in December  (Read 5602 times)
grahame
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« on: September 30, 2019, 07:58:35 am »

From Facebook - Pewsey Notice Board

Quote
The biggest shocker is that the current 0810 off-peak train has been replaced by an 0817 peak-time train. This means that a return to London around that time increases from 53.60 to 120
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Timmer
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« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2019, 08:19:38 am »

That depends on whether GWR move the peak time restrictions to take into account of the new train time.
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grahame
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« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2019, 08:50:12 am »

That depends on whether GWR move the peak time restrictions to take into account of the new train time.

Indeed. 

At present the GWR site will sell you...

12th December, returns Pewsey to Paddington leaving Pewsey at
07:22 for 120
08:10 for 53.60
10:18 for 40.40

19th December, returns Pewsey to Paddington leaving Pewsey at
07:19 for 120
08:17 for 120
09:30 for 53.60
11:01 for 40.40

There are some good advance fares around on some days, and of course the lower return fares listed above also restrict the time you can return from London.
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stuving
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« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2019, 10:16:38 am »

That depends on whether GWR move the peak time restrictions to take into account of the new train time.

That's not the point - quite the opposite. The current restriction code for off-peak returns (LC) says they are valid for trains after 7:54 - so OK at 8:10, and a fortiori at 8:17. The question is why the times for that code change in December, because they do. Extracting just the Pewsey lines from the long list of "unpublished restrictions" on BRFares (i.e. the machine-understandable version of the text):
Quote
Outward Journey
Summary:    PEAK TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS APPLY MON-FRI

Time Restrictions
From    Until    Restriction(s) below apply on these days only:
Mon 30 Sep 2019    Sat 14 Dec 2019       Mo Tu We Th Fr 
Not valid to depart    PEWSEY    04300754    on any TOC
From    Until    Restriction(s) below apply on these days only:
Sun 15 Dec 2019    Sat 21 Dec 2019       Mo Tu We Th Fr 
Not valid to depart    PEWSEY    04300859    on any TOC
From    Until    Restriction(s) below apply on these days only:
Sun 22 Dec 2019    Tues 31 Dec 2019       Mo Tu           
Not valid to depart    PEWSEY    04300859    on any TOC
From    Until    Restriction(s) below apply on these days only:
Thurs 2 Jan 2020    Thurs 9 Apr 2020       Mo Tu We Th Fr 
Not valid to depart    PEWSEY    04300859    on any TOC
From    Until    Restriction(s) below apply on these days only:
Tues 14 Apr 2020    Sat 2 May 2020       Mo Tu We Th Fr 
Not valid to depart    PEWSEY    04300859    on any TOC
From    Until    Restriction(s) below apply on these days only:
Thurs 28 May 2020    Tues 25 Aug 2020       Mo Tu We Th Fr 
Not valid to depart    PEWSEY    04300754    on any TOC

Apologies for not tidying up the messy format, but as you can see the start of off-peak moves forward to 9:00 in December, but moves back to 7:55 next May.

Now that train (currently the 8:17, later the 8:10) arrives in London well before the normal threshold time for off-peak travel from bigger stations (with more trains), which is why the restrictions are applied one by one to origin stations. Code FO, applying to a wider range of stations (e.g. Reading and Hungerford) has a similar "concession" - and it does the same thing between 15/12/19 and 27/5/20. For Reading the shift is only from 9:29 to 9:39, but it looks to me as if this "mean" version is a direct implementation of "off-peak is available starting with the first train to arrive at Paddington from here after 10:29". It does look like someone's got a program that does this, and has used it uncritically -  unless someone knows of a plan to withdraw these "concessions". Just for six months.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 05:40:50 pm by stuving » Logged
hoover50
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« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2019, 04:48:23 pm »

I just found another anomaly post 15/12/19

On the National Rail Enquiries website, if I select an off peak return on the 0930 from Pewsey to Padd @53.60 it shows that it is not valid on the return departures from Padd at 1638 / 1704 / 1737 / 1807

However, if I select a super off peak return on the 1100 (or later) from Pewsey to Padd @40.40 it shows that it is valid for ANY departure from Padd to Pewsey.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 04:55:00 pm by hoover50 » Logged
stuving
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« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2019, 06:00:27 pm »

I just found another anomaly post 15/12/19

On the National Rail Enquiries website, if I select an off peak return on the 0930 from Pewsey to Padd @53.60 it shows that it is not valid on the return departures from Padd at 1638 / 1704 / 1737 / 1807

However, if I select a super off peak return on the 1100 (or later) from Pewsey to Padd @40.40 it shows that it is valid for ANY departure from Padd to Pewsey.

That's generated in much the same way. The super off-peak restriction code (XC) also switches to something much more severe in December, then back again in May. Outward from Pewsey, the banned times of morning are 02300854 now and from May and 04301029 from December. Hence the 09:30 stops being available on an SSR. For return from Paddington in the evening, the now and future ban applies 15071855 and 18581900, while for the December-May period there just isn't any - instead there is an arrivals ban for 15021900!

I can understand that the shorter journey times might suggest to GWR management that they should redo the calculation of other-end times based on the veto times at the Paddington end. However, if that's what was intended then it's not been done correctly. It would not be surprising if it was done incompletely, given the scramble to get the timetable together not too long after T-12. However, it's wronger even than that.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 10:06:36 pm by stuving » Logged
hoover50
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« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2019, 08:30:55 pm »

I can understand that the shorter journey times might suggest to GWR management that they should redo the calculation of other-end times based on the veto times at the Paddington end. However, if that's what was intended then it's not been done correctly. It would not be surprising if it was done incompletely, given the scramble to get the timetable together not too long after T-12. However, it's wronger even than that.

It seems the GWR timetable change in December is descending into a complete farce. Let's hope GWR sorts it out as lost of people in Pewsey are getting very angry about this.

Apparently it's going to be discussed on BBC Wiltshire tomorrow!
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didcotdean
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« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2019, 09:55:02 am »

The trains allowable on an off-peak ticket from Paddington in the late afternoon / early evening also don't look quite right to many destinations. Mind you it often isn't around even a minor timetable change as it is handled so clunkily.

It may be a much more minor change and inconvenience than referenced earlier, but the first off-peak train to London from Didcot will become the 9:27 rather than the 9:17 (not that long ago it was the 9:01). The arrival of this has been accelerated by two minutes, and the valid period put back by one minute so it will arrive three minutes earlier into London than the off-peak valid time rather than bang on it.
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bignosemac
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« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2019, 10:58:05 am »

With all the Peak/Off Peak anomalies cropping up due to changes to train times I hope that GWR will allow an 'amnesty' period (preferably into mid January 2020) for passengers.

If they are cocking up the fares database then it wouldn't be fair to ching passengers with Off Peak tickets whose only crime is travelling at a slightly different time than they've become used to only because of timetable changes.
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Richard Fairhurst
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« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2019, 10:41:32 am »

Same happening here on the Cotswold Line. Savers (i.e. Off-Peak period returns) have been valid since time immemorial on the 06.42 from Hereford (08.35 from Charlbury), which eventually rumbles into Paddington at 09.47. With the timetable change, it's being reclassified as a peak train, seemingly deliberately.
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« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2019, 04:04:00 pm »

Same happening here on the Cotswold Line. Savers (i.e. Off-Peak period returns) have been valid since time immemorial on the 06.42 from Hereford (08.35 from Charlbury), which eventually rumbles into Paddington at 09.47. With the timetable change, it's being reclassified as a peak train, seemingly deliberately.
A few years ago after a timetable change the train listed in the fares manual as having a Goldcard easement on the Cotswold line disappeared. It was replaced with a train that ran slightly earlier and I wanted to check if the easement applied to this train also. So I called National Rail Enquiries specifically to the call centre in India and asked. They said they don't have access to the fares manual which was no help and odd given they're supposed to handle enquiries.

So I called FGW/GWR and asked them the same question. A very nice bloke there checked the new manual for me. He was surprised to find that they hadn't updated things and the old train was still listed. He told me that looking at it historically there was always an easement on the last train before 10am. So he checked with a supervisor and then gave me his name. He said they were authorising the use of a Goldcard for that train and to refer the train manager to him if challenged.
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2019, 04:17:37 pm »

Same happening here on the Cotswold Line. Savers (i.e. Off-Peak period returns) have been valid since time immemorial on the 06.42 from Hereford (08.35 from Charlbury), which eventually rumbles into Paddington at 09.47. With the timetable change, it's being reclassified as a peak train, seemingly deliberately.

Though in that example the time of the following train is much closer from December - 09:10 as opposed to 09:41, reaching Paddington at 10:24 rather than 10:57.  That's probably a fairer time for off-peak tickets to be valid from, but I can see the 09:10 becoming an even more popular train than it is now if it is a 5-car as the 09:41 is currently and it becomes the first off-peak train.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2019, 04:22:45 pm »

My understanding is that GWR feel, with a generally hourly service improvement, the Cotswold Line is to lose most of their easements and is to fall into line with their general restrictions. so 1000 for the off-peak cutr of at PAD, with the 'usual' evening restrictions also
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stuving
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« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2019, 11:15:41 pm »

Same happening here on the Cotswold Line. Savers (i.e. Off-Peak period returns) have been valid since time immemorial on the 06.42 from Hereford (08.35 from Charlbury), which eventually rumbles into Paddington at 09.47. With the timetable change, it's being reclassified as a peak train, seemingly deliberately.

Though in that example the time of the following train is much closer from December - 09:10 as opposed to 09:41, reaching Paddington at 10:24 rather than 10:57.  That's probably a fairer time for off-peak tickets to be valid from, but I can see the 09:10 becoming an even more popular train than it is now if it is a 5-car as the 09:41 is currently and it becomes the first off-peak train.

For Charlbury, that's borne out by journey planners, and by the restriction code - GN. There's no text to say what the morning peak is - just the unpublished restrictions, which give specific peak departure times of 04300819 now but 04300844 come December. For return times there is in this case a simple statement:
Quote
Not valid on trains timed to depart:

London Paddington after 04:29 and before 09:16 and after 16:40 until 18:31
Reading after 04:29 and before 08:35 and after 17:10 until 19:00

The unpublished restrictions say just that, within a minute, through to after December.

GN includes Hereford as an origin, with morning peak coded as 04300641 - just not snaring the 0642. For the new timetable that's 04300655, which all fits with what ChrisB said about the whole line.

But the JPs won't allow the 0642 on an SVR from Hereford, and that's because that ticket has a different code - GK. And GK (which appears to be designed just for Hereford) has peak departures at 02300705 now, ruling out the 0642. Come December 15th, that changes to be less restrictive, but only to 04300655 (which doesn't seem to affect any trains). For return times there is in this case a similar simple statement:

Quote
Travelling via Evesham

Not valid on trains timed to depart:

    London Paddington before 09:16 and after 16:40 until 18:20.
    Reading before 09:40 and after 17:10 until 18:45.

but that's not what the unpublished restrictions say; there it is currently 16411846, though after December 15th it is 16411831.

While some of that makes some sense, a lot of it doesn't.
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ellendune
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« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2019, 08:39:56 am »

For many of us who use trains at about that time (e.g. from Swindon) there will be incredulity that anyone boarding a London bound train between 07:00 and 09:00 would ever expect it to be anything other than a peak train. 
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