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Author Topic: Green Roads  (Read 1257 times)
SandTEngineer
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« on: October 31, 2019, 09:47:35 am »

I make absolutely no comment........ Roll Eyes

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/stories-50223895/could-electric-roads-spark-a-green-transport-revolution
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Trowres
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« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2019, 10:17:25 am »

Curious...

When I hover the mouse over the cab of the HGV in the photograph, the (alternative text) caption displayed is:
Quote
Could electric roads spark a green transport revolution?

However, hover over the HGV trailer and the caption becomes:
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The mobile laundry for homeless people

 Cheesy Huh Roll Eyes
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eightf48544
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« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2019, 10:25:44 am »

Interesting. i seem to remember a bus like vehicle that had two poles at the back that collected electricty to propel the vehicle. Last seen in Bradford in the early 70s?
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stuving
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« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2019, 11:06:19 am »

...and and I seem to remember it on the forum in 2014 - Siemens both times, and their system goes back to 2011.

But this German programme, Elisa, is newer. It seems to be government-led and has three demonstration sites. This time the trucks are Scania, not Volvo, but pretty much the same idea. Reported last month as running late.
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2019, 11:13:00 am »

Oose gonna pay for it?

A propos of nothing, the UK intervention in Iraq between 2003 and 2009 cost £8.4bn.
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broadgage
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« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2019, 12:32:42 pm »

This undoubtedly works to an extent as has been demonstrated.

I am very doubtful as to the practicalities of applying it more generally.
What about fools touching the over head ?
Or vandals throwing conductive articles at it.
What about bridges over the road. At present bridges provide just sufficient clearance for existing designs of HGV. I cant see how the overhead can be fitted in as well under existing bridges.

And yes, passenger vehicles were powered thus, trolley buses back in the old days.

BTW a similar system was used about 100 years ago for goods vehicles, especially up hills. It worked well enough but was rendered obsolete by cheap oil, and cheap reliable high powered road vehicles to use it.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
stuving
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« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2019, 12:41:06 pm »

Oose gonna pay for it?

A propos of nothing, the UK intervention in Iraq between 2003 and 2009 cost £8.4bn.

What, Elisa? the German government, of course:
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The Ministry of the Environment is spending a total of almost 50 million euros on the three test sections, including almost 15 million euros for the section on the A5. In December, the Ministry commissioned Scania to supply hybrid trucks with pantographs.
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broadgage
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« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2019, 02:57:48 pm »

As was done well over a hundred years ago !
https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2009/07/electric-road-trains-in-germany-1901-1950.html

Probably easier then than it would be now. Certainly a more robust attitude to safety "we are sorry to hear that your child was electrocuted as a result of interfering with our equipment. we accept no liability for such events. please find enclosed our bill for 48 shillings, this represents our costs in dealing with the damage. please pay by return"
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
infoman
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« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2019, 04:07:32 pm »

Might as well put the conductor rail in the road way.
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grahame
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« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2019, 05:18:46 pm »

Might as well put the conductor rail in the road way.

Not a bad idea.    And would the whole thing have far less energy needs / friction if the rubber wheels were replaced with flanged metal ones running on that conductor rail?  Grin
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Coffee Shop Admin, Vice Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, and on the board of TravelWatch SouthWest.
broadgage
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« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2019, 07:03:17 pm »

Might as well put the conductor rail in the road way.

Unlikely in my view. Fraught with hazards. Overhead is bad enough but is at least out of easy reach. And remember that a rubber tyred vehicle needs TWO conductor rails or overhead wires, railways are bad enough with just one.

The health and safety industry are opposed to any significant expansion of conductor rails on railways, so anything similar on roads would seem likely to be prohibited.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
stuving
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« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2019, 07:25:25 pm »

Might as well put the conductor rail in the road way.

Unlikely in my view. Fraught with hazards. Overhead is bad enough but is at least out of easy reach. And remember that a rubber tyred vehicle needs TWO conductor rails or overhead wires, railways are bad enough with just one.

The health and safety industry are opposed to any significant expansion of conductor rails on railways, so anything similar on roads would seem likely to be prohibited.

Unless you're a Swede, it seems. As was reported here last year (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14372.msg235815#msg235815), when a short stretch of "slot-lorry" public road was opened. It was meant to be a one-year trial leading to a longer road being done, but I can't see anything about it from this year.
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Trowres
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« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2020, 11:24:20 pm »

More on the subject of overhead electrification for powering HGVs in this report:

Decarbonising  the  UK’s  Long-Haul  Road Freight at Minimum Economic Cost
http://www.csrf.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/SRF-WP-UKEMS-v2.pdf

Quote
Overhead catenaries and compatible HGV’s are the most energy-efficient and cost-effective solution to fully decarbonise the UK’s road freight network. Their deployment is essential if the UK is to achieve its  Carbon  budgets through  to  net-zero GHG  emissions  by  2050.  The  technology  is  proven  and  the transition  from  the  current  diesel-centric  approach  to  catenary-powered  electric  vehicles  can  be handled  with  hybrid  vehicles

Certain engineers on this forum should look away now...

Phase 1
3261 lane-km
Construction time: 2 years
Infrastructure cost: £5.6bn
HGV-km coverage: 31%

Quote
The German government has spent over £62 million (€70 million) to date on its catenary programme across three main demonstration sites (BMU, 2018). These include the A5 near Frankfurt, the BAB1 near  Lubeck  and  the  B462  near  Baden-Württemberg.  In  each  of  the  projects,  the  planning  phase consisted  of  one  year,  and  the  construction  took  9 months.  The  electrified  sections  range  between 6 km  and  10  km,  with  an  average  per  lane-km  construction  cost  of  approximately  £1.29  million (€1.46 million).



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CyclingSid
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« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2020, 08:05:42 am »

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vehicle that had two poles at the back that collected electricty to propel the vehicle
, so possibly a trolley lorry?

Sounds like one of the phrases you had to say very fast as a kid and not get your lollies and lorries mixed up.
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stuving
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« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2020, 01:22:03 pm »

More on the subject of overhead electrification for powering HGVs in this report:

Decarbonising  the  UK’s  Long-Haul  Road Freight at Minimum Economic Cost
http://www.csrf.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/SRF-WP-UKEMS-v2.pdf

I don't think that is the subject - and the report makes a mistake in giving the "UK Electric Motorway System" too much prominence. The real subject is how to make battery-powered lorries practical, both in the long term zero-carbon future and the shorter-term transition to get there. Providing mains electricity on the long trunk road parts of the journey is their long-term answer, with a diesel range extender (making it doubly hybrid) needed if batteries are not capable enough soon enough. (Note that batteries are not expected ever to be practical on their own, and the German trail systems don't bother with them.)

That all makes some kind of sense, at a superficial level at least. And this is a pretty superficial report. The supporting details may be provided by the references; I haven't looked so I don't know. Certainly this "Centre For Sustainable Road Freight* is not in a position to do much detailed technology stuff, being mainly a bunch of logisticians. In particular, they have a glaring lack of electrical engineers - bearing in mind that the future is electric - which presumably explains the lack of even a voltage for the supply.  And as to the issues of sizing the power supply, its feeds, its protection, and how to earth a lorry for safety - look elsewhere.

One striking feature is how scathing they are about hydrogen fuel. That may just reflect how their chosen solution competes with it, but it also provides a counter-argument to most of what your read, which comes from pro-hydrogen sources.

*mission statement: "The Centre For Sustainable Road Freight brings together multi-disciplinary teams of researchers and industry leaders to improve road freight efficiency and reduce its environmental impact. Our purpose is to research engineering and organizational solutions to make road freight economically, socially and environmentally sustainable." The Centre is a collaboration between Cambridge and Heriot-Watt Universities and organizations in the freight and logistics sectors, with a major 5-year grant from EPSRC.
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