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Author Topic: Crossrail - a new railway for London  (Read 36125 times)
IndustryInsider
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« Reply #135 on: January 18, 2022, 01:34:43 pm »

Whilst a partial opening will no doubt be ultimately achieved, hopefully this year, I am very doubtful as to the longer term reliability of this railway.
Apart from the general issues of anything new tending towards greater complexity and reduced reliability, there seems to be a particular built in problem in this railway.

My understanding is that two different signaling systems are used, one for the core section and one for the outer bits. Both systems have to interface with the computer systems on the train.
If the changeover between these two systems does not work as intended then the brakes are automatically applied

I agree that having more than one signalling system adds to the complexity, and I am sure there will be issues cropping up now and again.  However:

1)  Don’t the Thameslink Class 700s change signalling systems when they go through their core section which uses ATO (Automatic Train Operation)?  Do we hear of many problems with them?

2)  During the extensive testing programme for Crossrail, units are regularly changing signalling modes in real life now whilst coming on and off Old Oak Common depot to get to Royal Oak. 
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« Reply #136 on: January 18, 2022, 03:39:29 pm »

Whilst a partial opening will no doubt be ultimately achieved, hopefully this year, I am very doubtful as to the longer term reliability of this railway.
Apart from the general issues of anything new tending towards greater complexity and reduced reliability, there seems to be a particular built in problem in this railway.

My understanding is that two different signaling systems are used, one for the core section and one for the outer bits. Both systems have to interface with the computer systems on the train.
If the changeover between these two systems does not work as intended then the brakes are automatically applied

I agree that having more than one signalling system adds to the complexity, and I am sure there will be issues cropping up now and again.  However:

1)  Don’t the Thameslink Class 700s change signalling systems when they go through their core section which uses ATO (Automatic Train Operation)?  Do we hear of many problems with them?

2)  During the extensive testing programme for Crossrail, units are regularly changing signalling modes in real life now whilst coming on and off Old Oak Common depot to get to Royal Oak. 

The Thameslink class 700 in the core do use ATO based on a NR» (Network Rail - home page) form of ETCS (European Train Control System) which is different to Crossrail core which uses a system based on the same system as the Northern line.  The Thameslink core also has conventional signalling and PoSA -Proceed-on-Sight Authority.

One of the main integrators of the systems on Crossrail is Siemens Transportation, I saw the Crossrail system in a Siemens UK (United Kingdom) factory during its factory acceptance testing a few years ago, the level of inter company cooperation is extremely high, none of the companies want or can afford reputationally for Crossrail to fail technically   
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« Reply #137 on: January 18, 2022, 07:38:52 pm »


I agree that having more than one signalling system adds to the complexity, and I am sure there will be issues cropping up now and again.  However:

1)  Don’t the Thameslink Class 700s change signalling systems when they go through their core section which uses ATO (Automatic Train Operation)?  Do we hear of many problems with them?

2)  During the extensive testing programme for Crossrail, units are regularly changing signalling modes in real life now whilst coming on and off Old Oak Common depot to get to Royal Oak. 

The Thameslink class 700 in the core do use ATO based on a NR» (Network Rail - home page) form of ETCS (European Train Control System) which is different to Crossrail core which uses a system based on the same system as the Northern line.  The Thameslink core also has conventional signalling and PoSA -Proceed-on-Sight Authority.

One of the main integrators of the systems on Crossrail is Siemens Transportation, I saw the Crossrail system in a Siemens UK (United Kingdom) factory during its factory acceptance testing a few years ago, the level of inter company cooperation is extremely high, none of the companies want or can afford reputationally for Crossrail to fail technically   
[/quote]

Whilst that all sounds very reassuring, ISTR (I seem to recall/remember) rather similar reassurances about the failed  IET (Intercity Express Train) project.
Things like various "essential requirements" regarding time to couple and uncouple, and resistance to waves at Dawlish.
And testing so as to ensure reliability in service.
And all "trains from London that need to be full length, will be"
Guaranteed availability, with heavy penalties payable for any shortfalls.

And we have seen how that has ended, even if partly hidden by/blamed upon the pandemic.
 So I do not share the optimism expressed by some.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #138 on: January 18, 2022, 08:09:05 pm »


Whilst that all sounds very reassuring, ISTR (I seem to recall/remember) rather similar reassurances about the failed  IET (Intercity Express Train) project.
Things like various "essential requirements" regarding time to couple and uncouple, and resistance to waves at Dawlish.
And testing so as to ensure reliability in service.
And all "trains from London that need to be full length, will be"
Guaranteed availability, with heavy penalties payable for any shortfalls.

And we have seen how that has ended, even if partly hidden by/blamed upon the pandemic.
 So I do not share the optimism expressed by some.

None of which has more than a tenuous link to the matter of signalling on Crossrail.
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broadgage
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« Reply #139 on: January 18, 2022, 09:06:09 pm »

The connection is indeed tenuous, but both are large, complex and expensive railway projects. One of which has gone orribly wrong.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #140 on: January 18, 2022, 09:12:05 pm »

The connection is indeed tenuous, but both are large, complex and expensive railway projects. One of which has gone orribly wrong.

My mistake for thinking you were wanting to discuss a different topic, rather than just working out a way to bring it round to one of your old favourites. 

Tedious rather than tenuous.
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« Reply #141 on: January 19, 2022, 09:18:16 am »

The connection is indeed tenuous, but both are large, complex and expensive railway projects. One of which has gone orribly wrong.

My mistake for thinking you were wanting to discuss a different topic, rather than just working out a way to bring it round to one of your old favourites. 

Tedious rather than tenuous.

Crossrail is a complex project, it will have teething problems when it enters public use, just as TLP was a complex project and had teething problems.

I would not say that IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) is a failed project.

Crossrail for the Thames Valley and Thames Estuary rail users will be a game changer for accessing the West End, City, Docklands and Heathrow; add to the mix interchange at Farringdon with Thameslink
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« Reply #142 on: January 25, 2022, 02:47:05 pm »

BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) News brief test of Crossrail https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-london-60120731
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« Reply #143 on: January 27, 2022, 07:59:30 am »

Opening March, May or June (yes, 2022!)

From New Civil Engineer

Quote
Crossrail Ltd has earmarked March 2022 as the earliest the Elizabeth line could open to passengers, with June 2022 recorded as the latest possible opening date. A third possible opening date of May 2022 is also included in Crossrail Ltd’s latest target opening scenarios. All three dates are within the previously declared opening window of the first half of 2022.

Waiting for Bond Street to be ready would mean that the March date would be highly unlikely, with May or June a more realistic target date.

A decision on Bond Street was due to be made at a “Go/No Go meeting” scheduled for 2 December. However, according to Jacobs latest PREP [project representative] report, that meeting was delayed until an unidentified date in January.
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« Reply #144 on: January 27, 2022, 01:18:22 pm »

Opening March, May or June (yes, 2022!)

From New Civil Engineer

Quote
Crossrail Ltd has earmarked March 2022 as the earliest the Elizabeth line could open to passengers, with June 2022 recorded as the latest possible opening date. A third possible opening date of May 2022 is also included in Crossrail Ltd’s latest target opening scenarios. All three dates are within the previously declared opening window of the first half of 2022.

Waiting for Bond Street to be ready would mean that the March date would be highly unlikely, with May or June a more realistic target date.

A decision on Bond Street was due to be made at a “Go/No Go meeting” scheduled for 2 December. However, according to Jacobs latest PREP [project representative] report, that meeting was delayed until an unidentified date in January.

In the Jan 22 update from Mark Wild CEO (Chief Executive Officer) of Crossrail Bond Street stats it has been "decoupled" from the opening of the railway in this video at 2min 54 sec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnVeE8DxTzk is where he mentions it.

Having been involved in Thameslink and the opening of a new section of that (Canal Tunnels) and the impact it had on the already operational railways, I know there is a well structured and rigorous safety verification process that involves all the 'stake holders'  (Police both BTP (British Transport Police) and civil, Fire and Rescuce, ambulance, service, local authorities, other railway infrastructure operators etc) TfL» (Transport for London - about) DfT» (Department for Transport - about) etc and of course the ORR» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) 

The process is not an overnight one the evidence will have been verified as the pre opening testing was going on.

March might be a big ask, Easter school holidays I would say is nearer date and defiantly in time for Queen Platinum Jubilee
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« Reply #145 on: January 29, 2022, 09:48:05 pm »

Opening March, May or June (yes, 2022!)


The first fare-paying passenger from Abbey Wood to Paddington has already been carried according to ITV News.

Quote
Crossrail security breach as passenger travels by mistake on test train to Paddington

Wednesday 26 January 2022, 3:46pm

London transport bosses investigated a serious security breach on Crossrail after a member of the public travelled on a test train by mistake.

The passenger got on board at Abbey Wood in south east London and travelled through the new tunnels to Paddington.

Platforms are meant to be out of bounds to the public but Crossrail boss Howard Smith said the man wandered through an open gate.

"Abbey Wood station is used by Southeastern trains, it's open, it's been built for several years," said Howard Smith.

"But the Elizabeth Line platforms should be closed off with a gate.


"The gate used by drivers to get to and from the trains was left open and a passenger innocently came down to the platform and boarded the train that they saw was marked Paddington which is where they wanted to go.

"As soon as they got off the train they were picked up by staff.

"They conducted an investigation and changed the arrangements regarding the gate keeping it locked and with regard to signage," Mr Smith added.
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« Reply #146 on: January 30, 2022, 08:11:53 am »

That's an absolutely shocking breach of security.

If someone with evil intent had been able to just breeze through in that manner God knows what the consequences could have been.
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« Reply #147 on: January 30, 2022, 10:38:03 am »

Not great I grant you, but mountains out of molehills if you ask me.  It’s not as if they spent the whole day roaming the tunnels and stations at will.  They snuck through a gate onto a train and got picked up when they got off at the other end.

I’d have thought someone with ‘evil intent’ would be better off waiting until it was properly open…or get a job actually working on the project?
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« Reply #148 on: January 30, 2022, 03:05:32 pm »

Not great I grant you, but mountains out of molehills if you ask me.  It’s not as if they spent the whole day roaming the tunnels and stations at will.  They snuck through a gate onto a train and got picked up when they got off at the other end.

I’d have thought someone with ‘evil intent’ would be better off waiting until it was properly open…or get a job actually working on the project?

I wish I could feel so casual about it, but having been involved in two near misses myself (Irish and Islamist terrorist incidents), it's difficult.
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« Reply #149 on: January 30, 2022, 03:38:20 pm »

I was at Paddington when the Edgware Road bomb went off.  A working tube line of course, which was my point really.
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