Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 11:15 29 Mar 2024
* Attempted murder charge after man stabbed on train
* Easter getaway begins with flood alerts in place
* KFC Nigeria sorry after disabled diner refused service
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
29th Mar (1913)
Foundation of National Union or Railwaymen (*)

Train RunningCancelled
09:30 Weymouth to Gloucester
10:55 Bedwyn to Newbury
11:05 Swindon to Westbury
11:29 Newbury to Bedwyn
11:57 Bedwyn to Newbury
12:17 Westbury to Swindon
12:52 Bedwyn to Newbury
13:15 Swindon to Westbury
14:19 Westbury to Swindon
15:14 Swindon to Westbury
16:23 Westbury to Swindon
17:36 Swindon to Westbury
18:37 Westbury to Swindon
20:13 Swindon to Westbury
21:16 Westbury to Swindon
22:30 Swindon to Westbury
Short Run
08:35 Plymouth to London Paddington
09:37 London Paddington to Paignton
10:35 London Paddington to Exeter St Davids
10:55 Paignton to London Paddington
13:10 Gloucester to Weymouth
Delayed
06:05 Penzance to London Paddington
07:10 Penzance to London Paddington
08:03 London Paddington to Penzance
08:15 Penzance to London Paddington
09:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
10:00 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads
10:04 London Paddington to Penzance
11:03 London Paddington to Plymouth
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 29, 2024, 11:16:40 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[132] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[56] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[52] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[51] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
[46] Return of the BRUTE?
[32] 2024 - Service update and amendment log, Swindon <-> Westbury...
 
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
Author Topic: Is it time to take the trains back to Southampton Ocean Terminals  (Read 5003 times)
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10096


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2019, 15:45:36 »

IETs (Intercity Express Train) are the obvious choice, hopefully of the same MECHANICAL specification as the present fleet but with an improved internal fit out.

You want a much beefier performance on diesel if it was for the XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) franchise, so something more akin to the Hitachi AT300 order for East Midlands Railway (shorter carriages and an extra engine) would be more suitable than an IET mechanical spec...

The next XC franchise will surely feature additional stock, whether that's cast-off 22Xs from elsewhere (222s from East Midlands, 221s from West Coast) or a modish AT300 order. Given that the franchise is due for renewal in October 2020, XC should be less sardine-like in the timeframe associated with any new station.

...but you'll probably end up with a Class 221/222 cascade to strengthen trains and offer additional services.  The 7-car Meridians would be useful on many services, providing the interior is reconfigured as there are far too many first class seats in them - three entire carriages of a seven carriage train!
Logged

To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40692



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2019, 07:44:02 »

Very interesting to see how much comment this thread has generated!

I very carefully made no suggestion of diverting any existing services that didn't terminate at Southampton to the cruise terminal station, so the Bournemouth to Manchesters were out of scope - I do agree that they could cover Coventry, Stoke-on-Trent and Manchester without change, and reduce Bolton to one change. However, not sure of their traffic levels beyond Southampton; a definite "don't know" about terminating a couple of them (2 hours between, either side of lunch) at Southampton Cruise Terminal to give returning cruise passengers, and then new ones arriving, direct service.

I also, intentionally, made no reference to any local (cruise staff) to and from work.  I don't know the metrics of the area and would want to chat with Nick and Mark from Three Rivers before venturing any ideas beyond asking about the possibiity.

With regards loading, Meridians, suitability for luggage, yes - there are questions.  Noting the very high proportion of first class in Meridians, and that the cruise market may not be all that price sensitive - a good marketing opportunity. Also noting the heavier loading of this traffic from Southampton rather than around Birmingham.

JontyMort illustrates the current issue with "will I miss my ship" and despite that and the need for a taxi in Southampton is on balance as to whether to use the train. For future, a direct rail service to the terminal, a promise that the ship will wait (if first class passenger booked?) might tip the balance. 

I've seen later figures than in my earlier post for Southampton port - 1.5 rather than 1.3 million passengers per annum and that still an old figure. Cruise liners get ever bigger - Oriana is gone from the P&O fleet and Iona will be with them soon - up from around 1800 passengers per departure to around 5000! Very, very rough ... I wouldn't be surprised to see an extra 50 to 100 passengers on many of the trains, typical return fare say £190 (a bargain when you look at first class tickets from, say, Southampton to Sheffield http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=SOU&dest=SHF ) so that's perhaps £5000 of extra income for that short extra train movement.  Lots of estimates and assumptions in the workings, but I think they are realistic.  Sell and provide it well as a joined up product, take into account changes due to CO2 targets, etc, and the figures could be much better.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
Celestial
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 674


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2019, 11:59:41 »


However, not sure of their traffic levels beyond Southampton; a definite "don't know" about terminating a couple of them (2 hours between, either side of lunch) at Southampton Cruise Terminal to give returning cruise passengers, and then new ones arriving, direct service.


They'd be pretty empty on the days when there weren't any liners in port - not sure how often that is, but cutting a service short on the days in which there is cruise traffic would seem a rather passenger unfriendly way to serve the cruise traffic.  Maybe the alternative would be to tack an extra unit on and split the service (once XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) has more trains).
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2019, 12:52:52 »

If the liner terminal is to be rail served, then I feel that this needs to be every day and according to a published timetable.

If the service is to run only when the sailing schedules suggest a need, then I foresee all sorts of problems.
1) Cruise ship arrives late, train already left.
2) Cruise ship leaves on a different day, and "the railway" cant cope with this.
3) "the railway" forgets to or is unable to supply trains and crew on the required dates.
4) "no one told us that there was a ship today"

And of course a regular service might be useful for staff employed at or near the dock.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Celestial
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 674


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2019, 14:06:49 »

If the liner terminal is to be rail served, then I feel that this needs to be every day and according to a published timetable.

If the service is to run only when the sailing schedules suggest a need, then I foresee all sorts of problems.
1) Cruise ship arrives late, train already left.
2) Cruise ship leaves on a different day, and "the railway" cant cope with this.
3) "the railway" forgets to or is unable to supply trains and crew on the required dates.
4) "no one told us that there was a ship today"

And of course a regular service might be useful for staff employed at or near the dock.
So does that mean you have to run services into both the Eastern and Western Docks every day?

I'm not sure either that the port authorities will want trains running in to restricted areas on days when there is no passenger traffic expected, nor any staff available to deal with anyone who happens to get off and have a wander around.

Given that the cruise traffic will probably be between 10am and 2pm (the majority of ships arrive early morning, and leave between 4 and 5 pm), then I can't see a once of twice a day service being attractive to port workers, the majority of whom probably live in or within a 10 mile radius of the city.

Problem 1) is a problem even if the service runs every day by the way.
Logged
eightf48544
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4574


View Profile Email
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2019, 14:36:12 »

When I was at Waterloo in the early sixties we still ran Ocean Liner Expresses for the last of the regular scheduled passenger services.
 
This was probably totally unecomic as it required several trains worth of stock which sat in sidings for much of time, icluding I seem to remember a Pullman set for First Class passengers. Plus a number of spare Bullied Pacifics at Nine Elms. plus extra  drivers and guards.

Also there were a lot less trains on the lne in thoose so spare Q paths were available in which to run them.

An intesting idea but probably not suitable for todays railway.
 
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40692



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2019, 05:56:12 »

https://www.southamptoncruisecentre.com/cruises-from-southampton-in-2020.phtml
So how often to cruises leave?   Days of the month next year ...
3 4 5 6 9 10 14 17 19 22 31  Jan = 11
2 3 8 11 15 16 17 22 23 24 28 29 Mar = 12
1 2 3 6 9 10 11 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 23 24 25 28 29 30 31 May = 22
1 2 6 7 8 9 10 11 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 27 28 29 30 31 Aug = 24
2 3 4 6 7 9 10 11 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 21 23 24 26 27 29 30 31 Oct = 23
1 2 7 9 10 11 12 13 15 16 17 19 20 21 22 23 29 Dec = 17
From January to March, several boats are based away from the UK (United Kingdom) an several others are doing extended trips - up to 99 days.  109 departures in 6 sample months - probably 220 for the whole year. And there's one or more ships on each of these days.

I feel rather odd having started this thread - with the tracks to Weymouth Quay rotting away, with Stranraer having given up for Cairnryan, with Holyhead being a horrid ride out to the ship ... and indeed I could tell you less than positive stories about others.   However, those are typiclly ferry rather than cruise ports.   

Ships late back in?  Probably rarer than you think; I'm noting last ports of call close by, or really long stretches at sea before arrival.  A late arrival is a nightmare to the cruise operator - a train having left before passengers arrive for it would be a tiny problem compared to their other logistics.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
CyclingSid
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1918


Hockley viaduct


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2019, 07:11:26 »

If you were going to use the regular XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) service to Southampton, what is the turn round time at Southampton? How long do they sit in stabling sidings beyond the station. If the time was sufficient could they sit in Western Docks, allowing for the fact that the crew would need access to the same facilities they have at Southampton Central.
Logged
GBM
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1469


View Profile Email
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2019, 07:41:05 »

https://www.southamptoncruisecentre.com/cruises-from-southampton-in-2020.phtml
So how often to cruises leave?   Days of the month next year ...
3 4 5 6 9 10 14 17 19 22 31  Jan = 11
2 3 8 11 15 16 17 22 23 24 28 29 Mar = 12
1 2 3 6 9 10 11 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 23 24 25 28 29 30 31 May = 22
1 2 6 7 8 9 10 11 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 27 28 29 30 31 Aug = 24
2 3 4 6 7 9 10 11 12 14 15 16 17 18 19 21 23 24 26 27 29 30 31 Oct = 23
1 2 7 9 10 11 12 13 15 16 17 19 20 21 22 23 29 Dec = 17
From January to March, several boats are based away from the UK (United Kingdom) an several others are doing extended trips - up to 99 days.  109 departures in 6 sample months - probably 220 for the whole year. And there's one or more ships on each of these days.


Ships .....
Logged

Personal opinion only.  Writings not representative of any union, collective, management or employer. (Think that absolves me...........)
paul7575
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5316


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2019, 12:27:50 »

If you were going to use the regular XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) service to Southampton, what is the turn round time at Southampton? How long do they sit in stabling sidings beyond the station. If the time was sufficient could they sit in Western Docks, allowing for the fact that the crew would need access to the same facilities they have at Southampton Central.
Normally half an hour in either the up or down goods loops just past the station. Arr xx17 Dep xx47 ish.
AFAICT (as far as I can tell) the traincrew usually seems to be relieved on arrival, the oncoming crew are onboard during the shunt. 
(The first arrival of the day is an exception though, it spends most of the half hour running to and reversing in Totton Yard.)

Paul
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40692



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2019, 10:10:14 »

As a follow up, I used the Manchester to Bournemouth services between Southmapton and Brockenhurst outbound on Monday morning and inbound on Friday.  I would NOT recommend diverting them into a cruise terminal - a lot of traffic and especially on Friday morning it had the look of long distance (cases, people looking for their reserved seats, etc).   I would recommend the Newcastles (at least) go in ... Southampton Station very busy with returning passengers off the "Aurora" which is the smallest of the 6 or 7 P&O ships based there.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
eightonedee
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1532



View Profile
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2019, 22:29:06 »

I think the Newcastles terminate at Reading, Graham
Logged
paul7575
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5316


View Profile
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2019, 00:44:39 »

I think the Newcastles terminate at Reading, Graham
Alternate trains were extended to Southampton in 2010, and have been running since then (on Mon - Sat), hence my reply a few days ago explaining what they do between arrival and departure.

Paul
Logged
Umberleigh
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 456


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2019, 18:35:59 »

I would also imagine that many passengers will for peace of mind want to arrive the evening before, particularly those coming from anywhere more than an hour or so's rail journey away.  After all, if you miss your cruise because of a fatality, broken down freight train, etc, it's pretty disastrous if the next stop on the cruise is New York, where you were due to get off.

Also, it means a more relaxed journey to Southampton, rather than having to get up early, feeling under time pressure and crossing fingers that everything runs to time.  And one night's accommodation will be relatively minor in the context of the overall cost of the holiday.



I know from experience that New Forest hotels do very well out of cruise ship passengers both arriving a night or two in advance and also a night or two before going home.

I worked for P&O in the early-2000s and can second that cruise ship timetables are sacrosanct, For example, when rough seas threatened the access of the MV Oriana into the Amsterdam ship canal, P&O paid for a Dutch pilot to be helicoptered onto the ship and use his knowledge to guide them through the sea locks. Also a great deal of slack in the timetables,with some short trips between two ports in the same region taking place overnight at a snail’s pace. Furthermore, if there is a problem with a ship at sea, they will fly out engine fitters to the nearest port to fix the problem whilst at sea (cruise ships rarely have all their engines and/or propellers working for that very reason)
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page