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Author Topic: Aberthaw Power Station and Decarbonisation  (Read 24516 times)
ellendune
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« Reply #210 on: August 21, 2021, 11:57:50 am »

The government's Hydrogen Strategy came out.  It seems that they are very keen on Hydrogen power.  So keen that since they won't be able to get enough "Green Hydrogen" from renewable energy they are going to use "Blue Hydrogen" made from methane which will, according to this report in the Independent, actually generate 20% more carbon dioxide than simply using the methane as fuel!
I thought 'blue hydrogen' was hydrogen from electrolysis using electricity from the national grid (where burning gas is currently a large part of the mix), 'green hydrogen' was also made using electrolysis (but using 100% renewable electricity) and steam-reforming of methane was 'brown hydrogen'. However, when I Googled, I found this page (https://energyfactor.exxonmobil.eu/science-technology/blue-green-hydrogen) which states that "the labels ‘blue hydrogen’ and ‘green hydrogen’ have no commonly agreed-on definition."

Wikipedia agrees that the terms are not standardised but does define them.  It describes a whole range of colours.

Quote
Gray or blue
Hydrogen is industrially produced from steam reforming (SMR), which uses natural gas.[50] The energy content of the produced hydrogen is less than the energy content of the original fuel, some of it being lost as excess heat during production. Steam reforming emits carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas.
 

In essence they are produced from fossil fuels. It states that the difference between grey and blue is that Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS) is used in the production of blue hydrogen.  I assume that grey hydrogen can also be produced by electrolysis, but if blue hydrogen was produced that way the have to be CCS used in the production of the electricity. 

However according to the article in the Independent I quoted earlier, blue hydrogen made from methane which still actually generate 20% more carbon dioxide than simply using the methane as fuel.  Whether that is referring to blue of grey hydrogen I don't know. 

According to Wikipedia, brown hydrogen is produced from coal presumably in a way similar to the production of town gas that was as much as 50% hydrogen. 
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broadgage
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« Reply #211 on: August 21, 2021, 05:21:33 pm »

The government's Hydrogen Strategy came out.  It seems that they are very keen on Hydrogen power.  So keen that since they won't be able to get enough "Green Hydrogen" from renewable energy they are going to use "Blue Hydrogen" made from methane which will, according to this report in the Independent, actually generate 20% more carbon dioxide than simply using the methane as fuel!
I thought 'blue hydrogen' was hydrogen from electrolysis using electricity from the national grid (where burning gas is currently a large part of the mix), 'green hydrogen' was also made using electrolysis (but using 100% renewable electricity) and steam-reforming of methane was 'brown hydrogen'. However, when I Googled, I found this page (https://energyfactor.exxonmobil.eu/science-technology/blue-green-hydrogen) which states that "the labels ‘blue hydrogen’ and ‘green hydrogen’ have no commonly agreed-on definition."

There is a lot of re-branding going on, and a certain amount of fudging to show that ANY hydrogen must be a good thing.
A few years ago it was announced that homes built after 2025 would not be allowed to have gas heating. Greatly improved insulation and very limited electric heating was the suggested alternative.
This was opposed by various vested interests, and a "get out clause" has been proposed whereby gas central heating will still be allowed if the boiler  carries a blue sticker carrying the words "hydrogen ready"
« Last Edit: August 21, 2021, 06:35:08 pm by broadgage » Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TonyK
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« Reply #212 on: August 23, 2021, 10:01:25 pm »


In essence they are produced from fossil fuels. It states that the difference between grey and blue is that Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS) is used in the production of blue hydrogen.  I assume that grey hydrogen can also be produced by electrolysis, but if blue hydrogen was produced that way the have to be CCS used in the production of the electricity. 

However according to the article in the Independent I quoted earlier, blue hydrogen made from methane which still actually generate 20% more carbon dioxide than simply using the methane as fuel.  Whether that is referring to blue of grey hydrogen I don't know. 

According to Wikipedia, brown hydrogen is produced from coal presumably in a way similar to the production of town gas that was as much as 50% hydrogen. 

In one sense, Carbon Capture and Storage has been going on for years in the production of hydrogen by steam reforming. The carbon dioxide produced in the reaction is purified, and stored in metal cylinders. Unfortunately, this storage is largely temporary, as almost every use this gas is put to - fizzing up some beers and soft drinks, stunning animals, making greenhouse plants grow faster etc - ends with it being discharged to the atmosphere. The recovery of the CO2 is economic because it is at a much higher concentration than in the atmosphere, there is a market for it, and has to be got rid of as a waste product anyway.

The government proposal looks very much as though it will either divert energy from wind turbines from the grid to make hydrogen, in which case we will burn more gas to power the grid, or (more likely) end up using energy produced by burning gas to turn more gas into hydrogen and CO2, so that we can use the hydrogen to turn back into a lot less electricity, or burn instead of gas. I can see why we would end up with more CO2, unless we all agree to drink more lager and pop. Unless there are many, many more offshore wind turbines, this would be just another box-ticking exercise. Even then, there would come a point where even the most ardent greenie would have to admit that their will be times when we don't have sufficient electricity, and times when there is so much that we either have to pay generators to switch off, or end up running out of steel to make enough canisters to store all the hydrogen, while ships dodge turbines to cross the sea, and fish disappears from the national menu.

Put me down as sceptical.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2021, 10:24:57 am by TonyK » Logged

Now, please!
broadgage
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« Reply #213 on: September 10, 2021, 10:16:36 am »

It has all gone orribly wrong WRT (with regard to ) natural gas price and supply in the UK (United Kingdom).
Wholesale gas it at present trading at 140 pence a them. And has been for some days. That is about FOUR times the usual price at this time of year, and substantially in excess of the last peak price of 82 pence a therm.

Russia is restricting supplies, and various Asian countries are outbidding us for LNG cargoes.

In the near term, this is bad news for the environment as coal burning has increased, West Burton coal power station is back in use for example.

In the longer term, prices like this are good news for the climate as use of gas is discouraged and renewables become more economic. Two domestic energy retailers have gone bust, due to paying much higher wholesale prices and being unable to pass this on promptly to consumers. Others are expected to follow.

Although gas prices are greatly increased, there are not YET any physical shortages in the UK.

If supplies remain adequate but at today's price then I expect retail gas prices to at least double, and electricity prices to increase by at least 50%

If significant physical gas shortages occur, then I expect that HMG will bring in emergency regulations to limit consumption, and that large scale power cuts will result. GAS cuts are unlikely for safety reasons, It is ELECTRICITY supplies that would be at risk in any serious gas emergency.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
broadgage
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« Reply #214 on: September 10, 2021, 10:21:06 am »

Various links re above.

UK (United Kingdom) gas prices, 5 year chart.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cxwdwz5d8gxt/natural-gas

And, energy suppliers bust over prices, https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/08/two-uk-energy-suppliers-succumb-to-record-surge-in-prices

West Burton power station back in use, https://www.energylivenews.com/2021/09/07/britain-fires-up-coal-power-plant-to-meet-electricity-demand/
« Last Edit: September 10, 2021, 10:28:33 am by broadgage » Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #215 on: September 10, 2021, 12:38:54 pm »

Yorkshire Energy & A.N.Other failed late last year (early this year?).
Yorkshire Energy consumers were moved to Scottish Power.

We were with Y.E for around a year.  Left Scottish Power soonest & transferred to PfP.
Been with them for around 7 or 8 months.
Ofgem will transfer us to one of the big companies again, and we'll switch to a far cheaper one again.
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #216 on: September 10, 2021, 12:49:12 pm »

A friend (who works in nuclear power) pointed me at this interesting resource which shows carbon intensity of electricity generation by country. Obviously it doesn't quite tell the whole story, but it does lend weight to the view that the quicker we get a few new nuclear power stations going the better...

https://www.electricitymap.org/map

Scroll down to see Australia - Land of Sun, remember - and weep.
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broadgage
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« Reply #217 on: September 10, 2021, 02:17:56 pm »

I have mixed feelings about nuclear power.
It should be a good idea, but I have doubts as to the practical application.

I do not trust chinese involvement from either the quality control point of view or for national security reasons.
And as for japan, if they cant build a decent train then I don't want a nuke from them.

I would have more faith in UK (United Kingdom) designed and built reactors, but could we build them these days ?

Hinkley C is years late and will no doubt go furthur over budget.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Red Squirrel
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« Reply #218 on: September 10, 2021, 02:40:07 pm »

Hinkley C is years late and will no doubt go furthur over budget.

...which is probably a good reason for getting on with Sizewell C. The high cost is down to fiscal policy as much as technology.
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« Reply #219 on: September 10, 2021, 03:54:32 pm »

A friend (who works in nuclear power) pointed me at this interesting resource which shows carbon intensity of electricity generation by country. Obviously it doesn't quite tell the whole story, but it does lend weight to the view that the quicker we get a few new nuclear power stations going the better...

https://www.electricitymap.org/map

Scroll down to see Australia - Land of Sun, remember - and weep.
Never mind "Australia", contrast Queensland with Tasmania.
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broadgage
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« Reply #220 on: September 15, 2021, 09:24:25 am »

The increase in natural gas prices continues.
Now at about 180 pence a therm, well over twice the last peak price, and many times the norm for this time of year.

I am shocked at both the actual price and at the absence of any significant comment or reporting of this.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
ellendune
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« Reply #221 on: September 15, 2021, 09:16:03 pm »

The increase in natural gas prices continues.
Now at about 180 pence a therm, well over twice the last peak price, and many times the norm for this time of year.

I am shocked at both the actual price and at the absence of any significant comment or reporting of this.

I listened to the 5:00 new on Radio 4 today and there was a piece about it and the knock on effect on electricity prices
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stuving
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« Reply #222 on: September 16, 2021, 11:19:00 pm »

There were two pieces of news this week about electricity supply. One was the fire at Sellindge, taking taking the converters for IFA (the first cross-channel link) out of action. One half is expected back in a couple of weeks, the other not until the spring (though that appears to be planned maintenance). Which is bad, but not quite so bad now that there are several other links.

The other news was about the new grid link from Hinckley to Avonmouth, where the first pylon has just been erected. Work along the route via Bridgwater and Sandford has been going on for some time (as residents of places like Nailsea will know), but it's newsworthy because this is the first of the new pretty (well, prettier) T-pylons. This line has its own web site, giving loads of details of what happens where as it crosses 57 km of GWR (Great Western Railway)-land.

Picture from this BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) report, as NG (Natural Gas) ESO have not reported that yet.
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« Reply #223 on: September 17, 2021, 01:41:21 pm »

They won’t look quite like that once the 3 phase cables, insulators and aerial earth wire are fitted though?  I wonder if it’s just a coincidence that they’re having a significant PR (Public Relations) story with photos of just the bare mast?

Still looks good though…

Paul
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stuving
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« Reply #224 on: September 17, 2021, 04:31:58 pm »

They won’t look quite like that once the 3 phase cables, insulators and aerial earth wire are fitted though?  I wonder if it’s just a coincidence that they’re having a significant PR (Public Relations) story with photos of just the bare mast?

Still looks good though…

Paul


They have tidied up the insulators too. It was surprisingly difficult to find pictures of the NG (Natural Gas) prototype line with its realistic wires, as opposed to CGI (Computer-generated imagery). However, this is one from the designers, Bystrup;


They do need in-line insulators, and a few other tricks, for sharp bends, terminations, and junstions.

Of course some people are hard to please - this Guardian article maintains they are so boring as to be no better than the old lattice ones:
Quote
Designed by Danish architect Bystrup, the T-pylon is shorter than the lattice of old, which is achieved by stringing the wires in a triangular configuration. However, the style feels somewhat safe, as if to appease the detractors – after all, barely anyone objects to lamp-posts. What a wasted opportunity to drop more innovative sculptures across the landscape.

As professional detractors, they should know ...
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