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Author Topic: Aberthaw Power Station and Decarbonisation  (Read 39307 times)
broadgage
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« Reply #270 on: March 15, 2022, 05:51:30 pm »

Wind power in the UK (United Kingdom) does in a good month produce about one half of the rated capacity, less than that in the summer.

"efficiency" is not really relevant as wind is free. A more relevant question would be

"Do wind turbines produce enough electricity to justify the cost of building them ?" And the answer to that is yes, they do.

Every GWH of wind generated  electricity is several GWH of natural gas NOT burnt, with a corresponding reduction in carbon emissions, saving of foreign currency, and less reliance on Russia.

Natural gas is now at many times the historical norm, and doubts exist as to the reliability of future supplies. This should underline the need for more wind turbines. And more solar.

Under present conditions wind power is not the complete answer, but we should be working towards increasing power from renewables and reducing reliance on fossil fuels.






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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #271 on: March 15, 2022, 06:35:17 pm »

The "other" gridwatch site http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ explains that 30% of wind capacity is unmetered and instead appears as a reduction in demand.

If so, that would make the calculations a little more complex.
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broadgage
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« Reply #272 on: March 15, 2022, 07:48:02 pm »

As an approximate guide to the cost of generating electricity from natural gas, observe the published price of gas in pence per therm and divide this by ten to give an approximate price in pence per unit for electricity generated from that gas.

Natural gas today was around 300 pence per therm, which AS AN APPROXIMATION is about 30 pence a unit. And that is at the "power station gate" Transmission and distribution costs would be extra, probably about another 10 pence a unit.

The present subsidised price of domestic electricity is about 20 pence a unit, soon to increase to about 30 pence a unit.
Cost price 40 pence, retail price 30 pence cant carry on.

Wind power by contrast is under 10 pence a unit, often well under. Even Hinkley C at about 10 pence a unit is starting to look like a bargain.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
stuving
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« Reply #273 on: March 15, 2022, 07:50:07 pm »

The "other" gridwatch site http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ explains that 30% of wind capacity is unmetered and instead appears as a reduction in demand.

If so, that would make the calculations a little more complex.

They are not really unmetered. They are not connected to the transmission grid directly, but to the distribution network, so both their capacity and power flows are known to the DNO (Distribution Network Operator). The grid (ESO) would like to know more abut them, and even be able to exert come control over them, especially during disruption events. You may remember their comments on this subject after the "9th August" event in 2019.

There are moves going on, and in 2018 the Energy Networks Association published a proposal for enhanced data exchange, within their Open Networks Project.
Quote
This will provide National Grid with:
  • Full details of the sub-transmission network and any connections directly connected to the sub-transmission network
  • Details of all distributed energy resource connections greater than 1MW to the distribution network and their impact on energy flows at cardinal demand points; peak demand, summer minimum demand and solar-peak/daytime-minimum demand.
  • Details of all distributed energy resource greater than 1MW ‘accepted’ to be connected to the distribution network and their anticipated impact on energy flows at cardinal demand points; peak demand, summer minimum demand and solar-peak/daytime-minimum demand.
  • Details of all distributed energy resource connections less than 1MW to the distribution network, aggregated by fuel type and disaggregated by substations connecting to the sub-transmission network.

As you can see, distributed energy resources are the main area of concern.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2022, 08:54:33 pm by stuving » Logged
broadgage
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« Reply #274 on: March 16, 2022, 07:39:34 am »

There are some small wind turbines that are not metered in real time, domestic sized units with a meter that is read at long intervals. Similar in principle to domestic sized solar energy schemes. The energy supplied into the grid at any given time by such installations can never be known accurately, it can only be estimated or inferred.

I would be very surprised indeed if such non metered wind turbines contribute as much as 30% and I strongly suspect that this information is out of date. It might well have been accurate some years ago, prior to the recent substantial increase in large wind farms, all of which are real time metered.

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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TonyK
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« Reply #275 on: April 10, 2022, 10:11:01 am »

On the subject of decarb rather than Aberthaw, I noticed the other day that not only have cables appeared on the kinky new T-shaped pylons between Hinkley Point and just south of the Mendips, but some of the the older pylons have lost their knitting. I found a press release date 30 March from National Grid which says:

Quote
National Grid and Balfour Beatty engineers working on the Hinkley Connection Project have completed the installation of high voltage, 400kV cables under the Mendip Hills Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty (AONB (Areas Of Natural Beauty)).

Since starting in February 2021, teams have pulled a total of 102km cables (the distance between Bridgwater and Gloucester). The cables were delivered on 108 separate cable drums. Each drum held approximately 1km of cable, weighed between 35-50 tonne and stood 5 metres high. Next follows a programme of jointing and testing with energisation expected in Autumn this year. Reinstatement of the land is already underway on different parts of the route.  The Mendip cables section of the Hinkley Connection Project will be fully complete by the end of 2023.

Once work is completed and existing WPD pylons removed in summer, this part of the Mendip Hills AONB will be pylon free for the first time since the 1960s. Last week, representatives from the AONB Unit visited to see the works for themselves and gain insight into what is involved in a project of this scale.

and more at the source. The old 132 kV pylons will be coming down over the summer.

Sadly, I didn't have time for photos, although may have when I head back that way later this month. The T-pylons seem to have as much of a base as a wind turbine, and it will be interesting to see how much of that is temporary.
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broadgage
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« Reply #276 on: April 10, 2022, 12:07:11 pm »

They had better get a move on, before English Heritage list the old pylons.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
stuving
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« Reply #277 on: April 10, 2022, 12:23:54 pm »

They had better get a move on, before English Heritage list the old pylons.

On a more practical note, I've been puzzled by the way news reports about the current energy supply crisis, due to Russian gas becoming distasteful, segue into repeating standard decarbonisation scripts. Surely the question is "what extra supply of any form of energy can we (in this context, as Europeans) cobble together before next winter?" So I expected to hear by now about some projects - new temporary pipelines or gas terminals, or more likely reviving or repurposing old ones - that have already begun.

So where, in the cobbling-together spectrum (running from daft as a bush to might just work sort of), would sticking some smallish wind turbines onto old pylons rather than taking them down come?
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« Reply #278 on: April 10, 2022, 05:05:27 pm »

Big projects across Europe (subject to political whim):
1) Pausing and temporarily reversing the decommissioning of nuclear reactors in Germany
2) Peripheral countries e.g. UK (United Kingdom) massively importing and stockpiling as much LNG as they can. Note that Germany doesn't have an LNG terminal so will be reliant on (1) and gas pipelines from other countries. We haven't recently stockpiled because of the storage cost but I expect this to change.
3) Working with industry to manage demand. Industry could be given incentives to over produce in the summer with a clear warning that they will be rationed in the winter.
4) Environmental concerns given short shrift/relaxed. For example, French nuclear could output much more power over the summer if the government were willing to accept the loss of fish in some of the rivers.
5) Big national campaigns for energy efficiency. We've already seen the Italian government say that living without air conditioning would be a price worth paying.
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broadgage
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« Reply #279 on: April 10, 2022, 05:30:25 pm »

I doubt that putting even a small wind turbine on a redundant pylon would be viable, on account of the wind forces produced. A very small wind turbine should be doable, but it is doubtful if these are economic in grid connected applications. More applicable to boats and to remote premises without a grid connection.

As regards restricting peak time supplies of electricity to industry, I have my doubts except in a handful of special cases. It could result in exporting our remaining manufacturing industry to countries with cheap electricity available 24/7.

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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #280 on: April 10, 2022, 05:37:54 pm »

Big projects across Europe (subject to political whim):
1) Pausing and temporarily reversing the decommissioning of nuclear reactors in Germany
2) Peripheral countries e.g. UK (United Kingdom) massively importing and stockpiling as much LNG as they can. Note that Germany doesn't have an LNG terminal so will be reliant on (1) and gas pipelines from other countries. We haven't recently stockpiled because of the storage cost but I expect this to change.
3) Working with industry to manage demand. Industry could be given incentives to over produce in the summer with a clear warning that they will be rationed in the winter.
4) Environmental concerns given short shrift/relaxed. For example, French nuclear could output much more power over the summer if the government were willing to accept the loss of fish in some of the rivers.
5) Big national campaigns for energy efficiency. We've already seen the Italian government say that living without air conditioning would be a price worth paying.


2) We have very little gas storage capacity it was decommissioned a few years ago.  Is there any change we could recommission it? or build more from scratch?
5) The UK government don't seem to be interested in the quickest saving which is a national campaign on insulation. 

A push on onshore wind and on tidal power projects.  Remarkably much of our tidal projects are still EU» (European Union - about) funded including the Anglesey/Yns Mon project just starting! Is the UK government at all interested in funding such projects?
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eXPassenger
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« Reply #281 on: April 10, 2022, 06:33:44 pm »

On the subject of decarb rather than Aberthaw, I noticed the other day that not only have cables appeared on the kinky new T-shaped pylons between Hinkley Point and just south of the Mendips, but some of the the older pylons have lost their knitting. I found a press release date 30 March from National Grid which says:

Quote
National Grid and Balfour Beatty engineers working on the Hinkley Connection Project have completed the installation of high voltage, 400kV cables under the Mendip Hills Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty (AONB (Areas Of Natural Beauty)).

Since starting in February 2021, teams have pulled a total of 102km cables (the distance between Bridgwater and Gloucester). The cables were delivered on 108 separate cable drums. Each drum held approximately 1km of cable, weighed between 35-50 tonne and stood 5 metres high. Next follows a programme of jointing and testing with energisation expected in Autumn this year. Reinstatement of the land is already underway on different parts of the route.  The Mendip cables section of the Hinkley Connection Project will be fully complete by the end of 2023.

Once work is completed and existing WPD pylons removed in summer, this part of the Mendip Hills AONB will be pylon free for the first time since the 1960s. Last week, representatives from the AONB Unit visited to see the works for themselves and gain insight into what is involved in a project of this scale.

and more at the source. The old 132 kV pylons will be coming down over the summer.

Sadly, I didn't have time for photos, although may have when I head back that way later this month. The T-pylons seem to have as much of a base as a wind turbine, and it will be interesting to see how much of that is temporary.

We live very close to the buried section and have been following the build with interest.  Locally the cables came down a few months ago and we are waiting for the pylons to go and then the haul road.

As an aside the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) progamme 'Digging for Britain' included a segment on a Roman town discovered during this work.
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broadgage
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« Reply #282 on: April 10, 2022, 06:46:55 pm »



2) We have very little gas storage capacity it was decommissioned a few years ago.  Is there any change we could recommission it? or build more from scratch?
5) The UK (United Kingdom) government don't seem to be interested in the quickest saving which is a national campaign on insulation. 

A push on onshore wind and on tidal power projects.  Remarkably much of our tidal projects are still EU» (European Union - about) funded including the Anglesey/Yns Mon project just starting! Is the UK government at all interested in funding such projects?


The main UK gas store was in depleted gas fields under the North sea. It was decommissioned because the wells used  had rusted badly and were unfit for further use. It would in principle be possible to plug the old wells with concrete and drill new ones nearby, but the costs would be prohibitive.
New above ground storage for liquid natural gas is a possibility, but expensive, vulnerable to accidents or terrorist attack, and likely to be out NIMBYied.
 
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
TonyK
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« Reply #283 on: April 10, 2022, 10:33:02 pm »

Big projects across Europe (subject to political whim):
1) Pausing and temporarily reversing the decommissioning of nuclear reactors in Germany
2) Peripheral countries e.g. UK (United Kingdom) massively importing and stockpiling as much LNG as they can. Note that Germany doesn't have an LNG terminal so will be reliant on (1) and gas pipelines from other countries. We haven't recently stockpiled because of the storage cost but I expect this to change.
3) Working with industry to manage demand. Industry could be given incentives to over produce in the summer with a clear warning that they will be rationed in the winter.
4) Environmental concerns given short shrift/relaxed. For example, French nuclear could output much more power over the summer if the government were willing to accept the loss of fish in some of the rivers.
5) Big national campaigns for energy efficiency. We've already seen the Italian government say that living without air conditioning would be a price worth paying.


1) Entirely sensible, but the government has frightened the people for years. There are more coal stations in the offing - I hope no-one mentions that coal fired plants tend to emit more radioactive material than nuclear.
2) Easier said than done. Not only do you need storage, but also gas to put in it. We aren't the only country asking, and some have deeper pockets.
3) Good luck with asking people to work harder all summer and take their summer holidays in January.
4) Another way the French could balance their energy books would be to stop exporting electricity to us, and we rely heavily on our offshore nuclear plants.
5) Good luck too with telling Italians what to do. We do, however, have a massive national campaign for energy efficiency called Raising the Price cap on Energy. It will quickly bear fruit.
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TonyK
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« Reply #284 on: April 11, 2022, 09:02:24 pm »

And if you were thinking of installing a big solar array on your roof, bear in mind that it doesn't always save on emissions. From Bristol 24/7:

Quote
SOLAR PANELS CATCHING FIRE APPEARS TO BE CAUSE OF WE THE CURIOUS BLAZE
By MARTIN BOOTH, Sunday Apr 10, 2022



We The Curious will be closed to visitors for the duration of the Easter holidays and maybe for longer after a serious fire on Saturday afternoon.

Exclusive footage shot by Bristol24/7 shows dozens of solar panels on the building’s roof were destroyed in the blaze.

We The Curious has Bristol’s largest photovoltaic solar panel array of around 200 panels, with more than 60 of these completely destroyed.

In a statement on Sunday, We The Curious said that they have “sustained some significant fire and water damage to the roof, our second floor and areas of the building where water has come through. Thankfully, our main exhibition floors appears to remain relatively unharmed.

“We’ve still got some more assessing of the site to do, but we now know that we’ll be closed for a few weeks.”


We The Curious declared a climate emergency in 2019 by publicising their pledge to be carbon neutral by 2030 – photo: Martin Booth

Analysis by the BRE National Solar Centre suggests that there are three possible root causes for solar panel fires: an error in the system design, a faulty product or poor installation.

The most frequent cause of recent fires has been due to poor installation practices, leading to water getting into DC (Direct Current) isolators.

There are more than one million solar panels installed across the UK (United Kingdom), with solar panels contributing more than ten per cent of renewable generation and more than four per cent of total electricity generation in the UK in 2021.

In their statement, We The Curious added: “We’d like to say a massive thank you to our incredible staff for their hard work and dedication, to our visitors for their understanding, and to the Avon Fire and Rescue team and police for their swift action.

“We’d also like to say a big thanks to Bristol Hotel, SS Great Britain and Bristol Old Vic for supporting a wedding party that we had on Saturday.”

My son said he could smell it in Fishponds.

They say the most frequent cause of recent fires is poor installation, leading to water getting into DC isolators. The 2019 report Fire and Solar PV Systems - Investigations and Evidence compiled on behalf of DECC, points the finger at DC isolators as the biggest, but by no means only, culprit, with poor installation being a common theme. I mention this only in case anyone is out there worrying about their own solar panel on the roof. I am sure there will be a full investigation into this incident. There are millions of solar panels around the country in almost a million installations, making this a rare incident, albeit high profile. We The Curious will be closed over one of it's busiest weekends. It was also inconvenient for the couple due to be married there (lawfully welded), the good news being that the cake was rescued intact.
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