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Author Topic: Aberthaw Power Station and Decarbonisation  (Read 56325 times)
broadgage
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« Reply #360 on: March 02, 2023, 23:00:08 »

I doubt that I can get to the conference, but would be most interested to hear reports, via this forum or otherwise.
At present I still consider the whole idea to be very improbable, However my mind is not closed to new developments and I find this an interesting possibility.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #361 on: March 03, 2023, 10:41:46 »

I doubt that I can get to the conference, but would be most interested to hear reports, via this forum or otherwise.
At present I still consider the whole idea to be very improbable, However my mind is not closed to new developments and I find this an interesting possibility.

I'm with broadgage in terms of scepticism, but I'll try to watch at least some online if there is a timetable. I'm keen to know if this free hydrogen is concentrated and attainable, or plentiful, powerful but spread out, like wave power.
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stuving
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« Reply #362 on: March 13, 2023, 20:27:14 »

You may recall the Swedes were getting on with the challenge of replacing coke in steelworks by hydrogen. Hydrogen has its issues, even for those who do have Swedish hydroelectricity to hand. Now someone has popped up with an alternative, based on a bit of molecular sociology to persuade CO2 to give up its evil ways and become CO instead. This is from Yahoo Finance:
Quote
The novel recycling system captures the CO2 from the top gas and reduces it to CO using a crystalline mineral lattice known as a 'perovskite' material.  The material was chosen as the reactions take place within a range of temperatures (700-800oC) that can be powered by renewable energy sources and/or generated using heat exchangers connected to the blast furnaces.
...
Under a high concentration of CO2, the perovskite splits CO2 into oxygen, which is absorbed into the lattice, and CO, which is fed back into the blast furnace.  The perovskite can be regenerated to its original form in a chemical reaction that takes place in a low oxygen environment. The oxygen produced can be used in the basic oxygen furnace to produce steel.

It's only a paper study so far (see paper in the Journal of Cleaner Production), and some of the blocks in the diagram look a bit tricky - like the ones labelled "gas separator". But it must be worth a punt of someone's money, as the potential pay-off is big enough to override the low probability of it working well straight off.

In January the government offered the British steel industry £600M, as a combined rescue and "encouragement" to get greener. As a home-grown idea, it's tempting to think this would fit in with that project. Sadly, I doubt the industry will last that long.
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TonyK
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« Reply #363 on: March 14, 2023, 15:34:51 »

Nice. But doesn't the resulting CO, when fed back through the system and either burnt or oxidised by iron oxides, produce CO2 again? Sounds fine in theory, but will also need a lot of energy. Maybe a small modular reactor next to the steel works could save the day?
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stuving
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« Reply #364 on: March 14, 2023, 17:52:13 »

Nice. But doesn't the resulting CO, when fed back through the system and either burnt or oxidised by iron oxides, produce CO2 again? Sounds fine in theory, but will also need a lot of energy. Maybe a small modular reactor next to the steel works could save the day?

There are two diagrams in the paper linked to above, one for energy flows and this one for mass flows:


It's hard to follow, in part because of all the initialisms, and also the units are a jumble of kg, m3, and moles (gmol). But I think the carbon all goes round in the cycle, and none gets rejected to outside. Mind you, nitrogen isn't shown being rejected - and it must be or the whole thing would explode. Too good to be true? Probably, but hard to see why from a non-expert viewpoint.

I mentioned the gas separators, as the only methods I've come across are dissolving in a liquid (for CO2 in particular) and successive liquefaction. Here, something splits CO, CO2, and H2+N2 at above 700oC - so what is it? Does it involve huge heating and cooling energy flows? I did spot this in the text, under "further research is needed":
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Another area of focus should be the separation of nitrogen and carbon monoxide gases in an energy-efficient manner.
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broadgage
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« Reply #365 on: March 22, 2023, 14:58:48 »

The proposal for green steel production sounds most interesting, but I a bit doubtful about anything so complex that also needs further research.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
broadgage
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« Reply #366 on: March 22, 2023, 15:12:53 »

Approval has just been given for the building of a new and very large pumped storage power station in Scotland.
Output of 1.5 GW (Great Western) and a storage capacity of 30 GW. That should save significant natural gas.

AT PRESENT we seldom have a surplus of wind power available to fill this new storage, that however will change as more wind turbines are built .
By the time that this pumped storage capacity is built, a night time surplus of wind power is possible in Autumn and Winter, and maybe a daytime surplus of solar energy in Summer.

Building this plant is a large civil engineering job, but the technology is well understood.

https://utilityweek.co.uk/inside-1bn-pumped-hydro-plans-to-more-than-double-britains-electricity-storage/
« Last Edit: March 23, 2023, 04:13:26 by broadgage » Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
broadgage
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« Reply #367 on: March 23, 2023, 09:31:50 »

Presuming that this proposed pumped storage scheme goes ahead, I hope the safety standards will be higher than in the past.

During the building of Cruachen pumped storage power station, many lives were lost. At least 15 men died, and some reports say as many as 36 lives were lost. Standards were lower decades ago, but the building of Cruachen is not exactly ancient history, it was during my lifetime.

Cruachen remains in use today, with largely the original equipment, and is being expanded.

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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
ellendune
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« Reply #368 on: March 23, 2023, 20:12:04 »

During the building of Cruachen pumped storage power station, many lives were lost. At least 15 men died, and some reports say as many as 36 lives were lost. Standards were lower decades ago, but the building of Cruachen is not exactly ancient history, it was during my lifetime.

Cruachen pumped storage power station was built between 1959 and 1965.  I can assure you that construction industry safety has moved beyond all recognition since then.  I started in the industry in the 1970's and the change since then has been massive and I know ot had already improved tremendously before then. 
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eightonedee
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« Reply #369 on: March 24, 2023, 07:32:58 »

There's a good interpretation centre at Cruachan I would highly recommend if you are in the area. I recall that the display and film showed a lack of high vis, hard hats etc. during construction, and indicated that working conditions were tough, albeit that pay rates reflected them.

Not something that would be tolerated now.
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broadgage
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« Reply #370 on: March 26, 2023, 08:55:04 »

Presuming that this new pumped storage scheme goes ahead, I hope that rail transport is used so far as possible.
The site is not rail served, but a project of this size could justify the building of a new line direct to the work site and connected into the existing network at a suitable point.
A local passenger service to transport the workforce would be far preferable to use of cars.
A great deal of tunneling will be required, and the resulting spoil should be removed by rail. Granite has many uses including railway track ballast, making of concrete, and large boulders for sea defences.
And of course materials will need delivering.
Explosives will be needed, and are best moved by train.
After the works are completed, any new rail lines could be retained as a tourist attraction, or dismantled.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
stuving
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« Reply #371 on: March 28, 2023, 22:51:16 »

Here's a thing - a rather silly looking thing too. From Business Live:
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Carbon capture train to link enfinium’s Ferrybridge waste facilities with Teesside

There are hopes that more carbon creating firms will benefit from the route

Plans to establish what is billed as the UK (United Kingdom)'s first carbon capture rail corridor have taken a step forward.

Liquid storage provider Navigator Terminals has signed a memorandum of understanding with energy from waste operator enfinium that could see a rail link between the latter's Ferrybridge waste-to-energy plants and Navigator's Seal Sands site. The train service would transport carbon dioxide captured at the West Yorkshire facility to the Teesside site before it is shipped out to undersea aquifers for storage as part of the Net Zero Teesside and East Coast Cluster carbon capture project.

It is hoped the project - which comes after the Chancellor's announcement of £20bn funding for the sector - could open the door to other carbon emitters based in the North. The firms say the move will enable decarbonisation of one of the country's largest waste-to-energy plants.

Read more: East Yorkshire business park ready to bloom again in second decade

Bechtel, a global engineering, construction, and project management company, has been selected to support the feasibility work underpinning the concept...

On second thoughts, if you stop thinking of this as a long-term solution to anything, it does perhaps have a place. It allows a strict net emission limit to be imposed early, but for some big emitters to keep going where they are for (say) ten years - at a significant cost, though less than building CO2 pipelines. Or, put another way, if the government is determined to spend money exploring all the carbon capture options to see what they do, why not grab some for railways?
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stuving
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« Reply #372 on: December 14, 2023, 19:46:48 »

A big burst of publicity from the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (at least, big for a department no-one has heard of) about HAR1 - the first Hydrogen Allocation Round. Behind it is a small nugget of fact, that £400M will be invested by eleven successful bidders so they can start making green hydrogen.

Project NameLead DeveloperLocationCapacity (MW)
Barrow Green Hydrogen  Carlton PowerNorth West21
Bradford Low Carbon HydrogenHygenYorkshire24.5
Cromarty HydrogenScottish Power and StoreggaScotland10.6
Green Hydrogen 3HYROSouth East10.6
HyBontMarubeni EuropowerWales5.2
HyMarnhamJG Pears and GeoPuraEast Midlands9.3
Langage Green HydrogenCarlton PowerSouth West7
Tees Green HydrogenEDF Renewables HydrogenNorth East5.2
Trafford Green HydrogenCarlton PowerNorth West10.5
West Wales HydrogenH2 Energy and TrafiguraWales14.2
Whitelee Green HydrogenScottish PowerScotland7.1

That adds up to 125 MW.  There's a rather woolly target of 10 GW (Great Western) by 2030, and HMG says, oxymoronically, "We remain committed to our ambition of having up to 1GW of electrolytic hydrogen in construction or operation by the end of 2025". So there's a next round underway - HAR2, believe it or not -  rated (prospectively) at 875MW.

So whose money is this? The government support is revenue support - a guaranteed price. The strike prices varies per project, and averages £241/MWh. Of course that relates only to use as a fuel; one hopes they will find some customers to exploit hydrogen as a chemical feedstock (e.g. iron refining).
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broadgage
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« Reply #373 on: December 15, 2023, 08:35:30 »

Under PRESENT circumstances, hydrogen is rather pointless.
A great deal of electricity is used to make hydrogen, and it would in most circumstances make more sense  to feed this electricity into the grid, and thereby displace some of the natural gas otherwise burnt for electricity production.
Natural gas is still burnt 24/7 for electricity production.

However the position may change in future, and any future surplus of renewably generated electricity could usefully be used for hydrogen production.
Better get building a lot more wind turbines, and installing a lot more PV modules.

A new and very large pumped storage power station has recently been approved, and if actually built will reduce the need for hydrogen production, since surplus electricity can be stored in this power station.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
stuving
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« Reply #374 on: December 15, 2023, 17:51:02 »

With whatever is the opposite of a big burst of publicity, DESNZ sneaked out the announcement of what looks like a the knock-on effect of HAR1. One of the bidders that was not selected was HyGreen Teesside (BP» (Beyond Petroleum (Former name - British Petroleum) - home page) Alternative Energy Investments), and though EDF's Tees Green Hydrogen was selected it is much smaller. Both are part of the Teesside cluster of hydrogen projects, lined up (without naming names) to supply the trial in Redcar of hydrogen piped to houses for heating (aka Redcar Hydrogen Village).

So that's been cancelled, not by an announcement as such but by editing a short update into the page hosting a document naming the winners of the bidding to do that trial (Stage 2):
Quote
Update: 14 December 2023

The proposed hydrogen heating village trial in Redcar cannot go ahead as designed, as the main source of hydrogen supply will not be available. As such, the government is not in a position to provide support for the trial.

The government believes that low carbon hydrogen may have a role to play in heat decarbonisation, alongside heat pumps and heat networks, in slower time in some locations. The government therefore still plans to take a decision in 2026 on whether, and if so how, hydrogen will contribute to heating decarbonisation.

DESNZ are still making positive noises about adding up to 20% hydrogen to gas supplies, of which trials are already underway.
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