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Author Topic: Newhaven Marine. Closure consultation, January 2020.  (Read 797 times)
bignosemac
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« on: January 15, 2020, 11:51:37 pm »

For all intents and purposes Newhaven Marine Station is closed. The on demand taxi service to Newhaven Harbour Station (a two minute walk) ceased years ago. The decrepit platform canopy and station buildings werw potentially injurious to anyone foolish enough to try and gain access, so they were demolished in 2017.

A once busy station with boat trains offering folk sea crossings to Dieppe, an alternative to Dover-Calais. The private car with RO-RO ferries, then the Channel Tunnel killed of the last of the cross channel passenger traffic from Newhaven.

This station is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, It rests in peace! If it hadn't been for archaic railway rules propping it up, it'd be pushing up the daisies! It's origin or destination for passengers is 'istory! It's off the twig (or, perhaps branch). It's kicked the bucket, It's shuffled off this mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible! THIS IS AN EX-STATION!!!

Except of course, this is UK railway bureaucracy we're talking about. There has to be a formal closure procedure and until that is concluded, the fiction that it is still open continues. With GTR Southern having to trundle an empty passenger train down to the 'station' and back once a week.

Sir Humphrey though has got his act together today, 15th January 2020, and begun the formal closure procedure.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/newhaven-marine-rail-station-closure/newhaven-marine-station-closure

The consultation runs until 19th April 2020. I'll eat one of my flat caps if the outcome is anything other than closure. The link takes you to several thousand words stating the bleedin' obvious. Newhaven Marine should close, even though it already has.

Don't expect a farewell special, with a coffin adorned Class 313.

RIP Newhaven Marine.



P.S. If anyone wants to read about an early 21st century 'journey' from Newhaven Marine then I highly recommend the book 'Parallel Lines: Or, Journeys on the Railway of Dreams' by Ian Marchant.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 12:04:57 am by bignosemac » Logged

johnneyw
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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2020, 12:27:22 am »

I took the Newhaven Dieppe ferry, arriving by train with my girlfriend in late March 1990 for a long weekend in Dieppe and surrounds only to return to the UK to hear about the poll tax riots. I'm not sure which of the Newhaven stations I would have arrived at.
A quick check online shows that the ferry service is still running, currently by DFDS but I don't think it was them back then. I'll have to dig out the holiday snaps to see if there is one of the boat.
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Richard Fairhurst
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2020, 08:53:36 am »

It's been operated by a few different fleets - P&O, then LD Lines (originally as Transmanche Ferries), now DFDS. Handy link for the Avenue Verte cycle route, inter alia.

I'm surprised Newhaven Harbour is still retained, let alone Newhaven Marine. Harbour is only 600m from Newhaven Town station and it's near nowhere much. (The entrance to the ferry port itself, counter-intuitively, is right by Newhaven Town.)
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2020, 09:45:44 am »

I've never been to either Newhaven or Dieppe and I'm slightly confused by the presence of both "Harbour" and "Marine" stations in one town. Is this the legacy of Victorian competition? Or maybe one served ferries and the other served the/a prom? Or was it rival ferries refusing to share a harbour and each demanding their own dedicated trains? Or... what?
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grahame
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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2020, 10:11:17 am »

Newhaven Marine is a case where I can see little realistic future for an operational station. But (and this is a massive "but") I don't live in or know the area, or understand redevelopment options for the area around and for travel to and from that area. And I look at the consultation document and note areas where it could be seen as less than a level playing field in terms of how the case is put - I will follow up with those just below.

Newhaven Marine almost certainly will (and probably should) go. But I would hate elements of the case and methodologies to be used as precedents for procedure to close other stations, where they have a case which is very much more positive.

Quote
Retaining the status quo of a daily service carrying no passengers was considered as the ‘do minimum’ option, suggesting that if no intervention was made the station would remain open, but closed to passenger services. This was compared to the ‘do something’ which would mean restoring the station to working order and running a daily return passenger working from Brighton to Newhaven Marine.

How silly can you get on the comparison case?

A comparison should be made not only against a "most similiar to recent" service, but also against a "what is most likely to work" service.  And that is most certainly not a one-service-per-day setup. We've shown at Melksham that an increase from 2 to 8 trains per day (4 fold) has brought a 25 fold increase in passenger journeys, so far; not a comparable case, but I would hate to lose Polesworth or Barlaston or Denton, or to have lost Breich, based on an evaluation of the case for closing only compared to the case of a parliamentary service.

Quote
Estimates of wider economic impacts in the Newhaven Port Access Road (NPAR) business case suggest that the scheme could create 456 new jobs across the port of Newhaven, with 216 of these in the East Quay, for which Newhaven Marine may offer slightly closer access to the rail network. Due to uncertainty around the robustness of this estimate, a sensitivity test has been performed which represents a best-case scenario.

Best case scenario for whom?  A "best business case" for a new scheme - as far as a business is concerned - is to run with as much business as possible with a bare minimum of employees.  And what about visitors to that business and contractors?  Might they not use a train service?

Quote
Due to the proximity of Newhaven Harbour station, and fact that the East Quay (the only area for which Newhaven Marine could offer any access advantage) is entirely made up of commercial and not residential property, it is unlikely that restoring passenger services would return access to the network to any non-car owning households.

Every journey has two ends and the most typical journey someone will make is from residence to none-residence (workplace, leisure location, hospital, shoppng centre) and it seems perverse to use a measure that looks at one end and excludes the other. On that basis, close Cannon Street because no-one lives close to it!

Quote
Restoring passenger services from Newhaven Marine would likely restrict the volume of freight services that would be able to use the branch line, impacting the decision to reopen the line as a freight facility. This could potentially hinder the redevelopment of both the East Quay and the port of Newhaven as a whole, and prevent the Department and East Sussex County Council from achieving their strategic objectives and delivering the benefits of the NPAR scheme.

So there isn't trackbed / space to run a second track past the terminus platform?  And if the case (earlier up this note) of just one train a day were to be run, that would hardly preclude the use for freight passing through for more than a few minutes.



Why sort this out now?  Well - the last quoted section rather gives the game away - it's in the way of planned development.  Probably the right thing to do (but that is just my personal uninformed guess) but the logic leaks and I'm wary of potential precedents.

I've never been to either Newhaven or Dieppe and I'm slightly confused by the presence of both "Harbour" and "Marine" stations in one town. Is this the legacy of Victorian competition? Or maybe one served ferries and the other served the/a prom? Or was it rival ferries refusing to share a harbour and each demanding their own dedicated trains? Or... what?

Was "Harbour" the local station on the Seaford line, used by people living locally and working at the harbour, getting off the frequent electric train that called on the way through, whereas "Marine" was the terminus for London expresses which brought passengers for the ferry to the continent. 
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rogerw
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2020, 10:31:27 am »

As far as I am aware Marine station was only used by boat trains connecting with the ferries so that as boat trains no longer run there is no reason for it.  As has already been stated Town station is by  the entrance to the port.  Somewhat similar case to Weymouth Harbour, although I am not sure if this has ever been formally closed.
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Robin Summerhill
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2020, 10:45:58 am »

I have spent a little time in that neck of the woods, when SWMBO's daughter was at University at Brighton 2005-2008, and I sometimes took my dogs for a walk along the coast between Newhaven and Seaford.

Back then, all there was in that part of Newhaven was port-related equipment, industrial units, and a large area pf waste ground/ public open space between the south eastern edge of development and Seaford.

A quick look at Google Maps this morning tells me that nothing much has changed. Whilst local people in the know would be in a far better position to judge, I see little opportunity for a thriving rail connection to the area, if for no other reason that it is all so close to Newhaven Town and Harbour stations. Someone with a wooden leg could walk it in a few minutes.
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bradshaw
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« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2020, 11:23:57 am »

The original stations seem to have been Newhaven Town and Newhaven Wharf for the London and Paris Hotel (1874OS map). In the 1880s the LBSCR took on and redeveloped the wharf, extending the line to the south, forming the ferry terminal and the Harbour Station (1899 OS map). The Wharf station became the Harbour Hotel Station.
This last named is now the Harbour station, with the Marine station being the remnants of the 1880s Harbour station.
Marine is served by an early morning ecs and an evening ecs service only.
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paul7755
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« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2020, 11:32:17 am »

I've never been to either Newhaven or Dieppe and I'm slightly confused by the presence of both "Harbour" and "Marine" stations in one town. Is this the legacy of Victorian competition?
The Ro-Ro link span was moved up the harbour at some stage and ferries no longer berthed alongside “Marine”, then foot passenger boarding procedures changed making “Marine” completely redundant.  AIUI foot passengers are now advised to get off at the other most northerly station, Newhaven Town, which is next to the foot passenger terminal where customs and immigration checks are made.   I think the small number of foot passengers are then taken by minibus to the ferry ramp.  So in current operations, Newhaven Harbour station itself is irrelevant to ferry operations as well.

Paul
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GBM
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« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2020, 11:28:05 am »

I took the Newhaven Dieppe ferry, arriving by train with my girlfriend in late March 1990 for a long weekend in Dieppe and surrounds only to return to the UK to hear about the poll tax riots. I'm not sure which of the Newhaven stations I would have arrived at.
A quick check online shows that the ferry service is still running, currently by DFDS but I don't think it was them back then. I'll have to dig out the holiday snaps to see if there is one of the boat.

Ship.  Please......... Angry
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johnneyw
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« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2020, 11:43:49 am »

I took the Newhaven Dieppe ferry, arriving by train with my girlfriend in late March 1990 for a long weekend in Dieppe and surrounds only to return to the UK to hear about the poll tax riots. I'm not sure which of the Newhaven stations I would have arrived at.
A quick check online shows that the ferry service is still running, currently by DFDS but I don't think it was them back then. I'll have to dig out the holiday snaps to see if there is one of the boat.

Ship.  Please......... Angry

Cor blimey, you've got me bang to rights there m'lud!  Shocked
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broadgage
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« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2020, 03:56:44 pm »

A boat can be picked up, with a crane or hoist if need be, and put on board a ship.

A ship carries one or more boats, for use in case of emergency, and sometimes for trips ashore if port facilities are inadequate for the ship.

A ships needs qualified mariners to manage it, anyone is allowed to operate a boat.

If the vessel lists noticeably when you move from one side to the other, then it is a boat not a ship.

There are exceptions of course.
Some larger boats such as yachts carry a boat on board.
Submarines are called boats by tradition, but many are ship sized.
The RNLI operate lifeBOATS, but the larger ones are more like ships, and they do carry a boat on board.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
eightonedee
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« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2020, 06:32:35 pm »

I'd get that explanation printed on a  tea towel.  It should sell as well as the famous one with the rules of cricket (the one with all the "ins and outs ") among boaties (and whatever their equivalents are on ships)!
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SandTEngineer
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« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2020, 08:22:05 pm »

A boat can be picked up, with a crane or hoist if need be, and put on board a ship.

A ship carries one or more boats, for use in case of emergency, and sometimes for trips ashore if port facilities are inadequate for the ship.

A ships needs qualified mariners to manage it, anyone is allowed to operate a boat.

If the vessel lists noticeably when you move from one side to the other, then it is a boat not a ship.

There are exceptions of course.
Some larger boats such as yachts carry a boat on board.
Submarines are called boats by tradition, but many are ship sized.
The RNLI operate lifeBOATS, but the larger ones are more like ships, and they do carry a boat on board.

Which one has the trolley service and which one a proper buffet then?......... Shocked
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broadgage
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2020, 08:31:13 am »

Most passenger ships have decent  buffets, restaurants and other catering. The main exception being ferries on very short crossings.
Most boats offer little in the way of catering.
Cargo ships offer surprisingly good catering to the officers, crew, and any small number of passengers that may be carried.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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