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Author Topic: Bristol Airport  (Read 2593 times)
Red Squirrel
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« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2020, 12:39:36 pm »

When criticised for Bristol's inaction on climate change since it declared an emergency (in... November 2018), Marvin Rees said something to the effect that 'when you have an emergency, you need a plan - you don't all just start running round in circles'. Which is true. But if your house is on fire, and is seems that the buckets of paraffin you are throwing at it are making the problem worse, maybe you should make the first element of your emerging plan 'stop throwing paraffin' and enact it without undue delay.

And so it is with building roads and expanding airports.
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2020, 12:53:09 pm »

Bristol to Birmingham HS rail link ??

It was a bit of a non sequitur, but not a complete flight (sic) of fancy:


Image courtesy of HS2 Ltd

...more details here: https://www.midlandsconnect.uk/midlands-engine-rail/midlands-rail-hub/
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2020, 02:25:27 pm »

I thought I'd read somewhere that the councillors (or one of them) hoped their decision to reject the application would encourage other councils to act similarly. If that were to happen, then although this and the next several would be won on appeal/called in by the SoS, it would be the beginning of a turning tide. However, I've read through all the press reports I read earlier and I can't find anyone saying this.  Roll Eyes

You are correct it was within one of the interviews shown on ITV West on Tuesday, I can't the exact quote but below is from a written statement which is very similar so would assume it was the same person:

.........Tarisha Finnegan-Clarke, co-ordinator of Bristol Airport Action Network (BAAN), one of the key campaigning organisations in this campaign said "This decision is likely to send shock-waves through the aviation industry in the UK as it may make it much more difficult for the many other airports who are currently applying to expand their passenger numbers before more difficult carbon targets are imposed on them by the Government".

TAKEN FROM: https://bristolgreenparty.org.uk/news
Thanks for finding that! I know I haven't been watching ITV West or reading Green Party news, so I presume TF-C must have been quoted somewhere else that I did read.
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« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2020, 08:12:05 pm »

When criticised for Bristol's inaction on climate change since it declared an emergency (in... November 2018), Marvin Rees said something to the effect that 'when you have an emergency, you need a plan - you don't all just start running round in circles'. Which is true. But if your house is on fire, and is seems that the buckets of paraffin you are throwing at it are making the problem worse, maybe you should make the first element of your emerging plan 'stop throwing paraffin' and enact it without undue delay.

Was that before or after the council ordered a load of new diesel powered vehicles?


If everyone who would have flown from an expanded  Bristol airport instead flies from London, and drives thereto, then nothing is gained.
The carbon emissions of the flight from London would be broadly similar to those of the flight from Bristol, and the carbon emissions of the drive would be in addition.

However the hope is that some people might decide not to fly. Perhaps taking the train instead.
The purpose of airport expansion is to accommodate more flights and more passengers. If we are serious about climate change, then we need LESS flights and FEWER passengers.
In my view, NO MORE airport capacity should be built. Even the present amount of air travel is a serious contributor to climate change, and to plan for any expansion is entirely contrary to concerns about climate change.

I would have certainly gone somewhere else to fly in search of vitamin D had I not been able to take a flight from Bristol to Tenerife to sit in the warm sunshine for 3 weeks. I probably wouldn't have gone for a few days' historical sojourn to Naples had I had to schlep all the way to Gatwick first rather than Ryanair from Exeter, so maybe the point is well made, but the genie is out of the bottle and it won't be easy to squash it back in. It will be a very brave politician who puts his or her neck on the block at a national level and says he or she will reduce the chances of Mr & Mrs (or Mr & Mr or Ms & Ms) Normal and their 2.4 children from enjoying a fortnight's self-catering on a costa somewhere, as opposed to in a Costa. George Osborne made it more expensive, or thought he had. Were it not for the tax, Ryanair would probably have paid for my first pizza to get me to Italy.

Bristol Airport is a business. Those Canadian teachers are no fools. They invested in a reasonably good airport and have spent a lot of money on getting more out of their investment. They are very proud of that in Ontario, my friend, a retired principal who follows events closely, tells me. But if you are going to have all those people flying through your airport, you want it to be as clean as possible, or at least as less dirty. So take what measures you can to cut energy use in the airport itself, as they have. The airport may yet go where WECA and the councils haven't been yet (no, not Kuala Lumpur) and prove the catalyst that finally kicks off light rail in the area. They are keen, and I'm sure they were the only business to dip hand to pocket to help pay for MetroBust.

Like others, I think this decision will not survive an appeal and a public inquiry. The council went against their planning officer's recommendation, and wrote a rebuttal of his advice. Any appeal will be based on law and policy at the time the application was made, so any new limits subsequently introduced will have no bearing on it. If NSDC's reasons did not follow national policy, they will be overturned. I hope they didn't turn down the application simply to appease the protesters outside the town hall, knowing full well that an appeal would succeed and secretly looking forward to the increased business rates and the chance to blame the Tories, because that is not an efficient use of council tax money. It isn't unheard of - look at Bristol City Council and the MacDonalds in Fishponds.

Stansted is in the same boat (poor metaphor) having been refused plans to expand what was described as "a car parking scheme with an adjacent runway" by one person at the meeting. On the other side of the coin, the good people of Sipson and other places scheduled for demolition for the third runway at Heathrow, may be wondering if there could be a further glimmer of hope for them, to add to the Prime Minister's comments earlier today, if Bristol does get to expand. For them, certainty can only really come with a bulldozer, but it could pause things for a while. Maybe aviation will decline rapidly and save them if they can hang on long enough.

You WILL go to to Bognor !!  Vote for me ......    Undecided Undecided

I'm with His Majesty King George V on that one.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 08:58:11 pm by TonyK » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2020, 09:58:40 pm »

On the other side of the coin, the good people of Sipson and other places scheduled for demolition for the third runway at Heathrow, may be wondering if there could be a further glimmer of hope for them, to add to the Prime Minister's comments earlier today, if Bristol does get to expand. For them, certainty can only really come with a bulldozer, but it could pause things for a while. Maybe aviation will decline rapidly and save them if they can hang on long enough.


Just in case anyone missed it, here are Boris's comments.
From Evening Standard
Quote
Challenged about his own promise to lie down in front of the bulldozers for the third runway, Mr Johnson said: “I see no bulldozers at present, nor any immediate prospect of them arriving.”

The Prime Minister also implied it may be quicker in future for some Londoners to use Birmingham airport via high-speed rail.

“Passengers arriving at Birmingham Airport will be able to get to central London by train in 38 minutes, which compares favourably with the time it takes to get from Heathrow by taxi, a point I just draw to the attention of the House,” said the PM in his formal statement.

He added that HS2 connections would be “considerably faster than the Piccadilly line” which is the Tube link to Heathrow. 

Boris's government seems to be bending over backwards to please the North at the moment. Will he give Birmingham or Manchester extra runways instead of Heathrow?
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2020, 11:46:18 pm »

I would have certainly gone somewhere else to fly in search of vitamin D had I not been able to take a flight from Bristol to Tenerife to sit in the warm sunshine for 3 weeks.

No-one's actually suggested reducing the number of flights from Bristol...
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TonyK
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« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2020, 08:14:37 am »

I would have certainly gone somewhere else to fly in search of vitamin D had I not been able to take a flight from Bristol to Tenerife to sit in the warm sunshine for 3 weeks.

No-one's actually suggested reducing the number of flights from Bristol...

Not quite my point, and someone somewhere will surely have suggested a reduction to a number not unadjacent to zero, but I agree. The airport isn't up to the maximum number of passenger movements it actually has permission for yet. They clearly have ambitions to increase. Whether the application has been put in to make ready in the face of additional demand or to avoid new limits on CO2 emissions is for them to answer.
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« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2020, 06:55:04 pm »

I will always respect anyone's opinion, but that just means if I take a long haul flight now, I get the chance to drive to London etc for the privelage, surely that doesn't help anything in the long run?

Lulsgate serves very few long haul destinations currently, with no published plans to increase scheduled long haul destinations. Nearly all the destinations beyond Europe are seasonal only. So unless you want the Caribbean, Middle East or Orlando between May and September you'll still need to travel to another airport for the rest of the world.

If you really must start at Lulsgste there's nothing stopping you flying to a European hub (Dublin, Paris CDG, Amsterdam Schipol, Frankfurt am Main) and taking your long haul flight from there.

Or take the train to Heathrow, Gatwick...
Bristol wasn't able to maintain its direct flight to New York for more than a couple of years, and if it couldn't support that long haul destination on a scheduled basis then I can't see many others working for airlines either. The big expansion of air traffic originating in the UK has been low cost airlines over the last 25 years offering a multitude of predominately European destinations from regional airports  that before would have (in the south) required a trip to LHR or LGW.  Now some of this traffic has replaced charter airlines and package holidays, but much of it has encouraged more frequent short (2 or 3) day trips to Europe, which were much less common before, due to cost and inconvenience of airport (stag and hen weekends being just one example, a romantic weekend to a cultural capital being another ).

Is this increase in travel a good thing or not?  Well, as well as the environmental impacts, several cities are beginning to complain about being overwhelmed by tourists, so maybe not.  But how do you put the genie back in the bottle? It's clear that APD currently doesn't have enough of an impact to suppress demand, and so I would be in favour of a significant increase, although politically it will be unpopular, with bleating that hard working Joe and Jane's fortnight in the sun will cost more. But if it makes people think twice about several weekend flyaway breaks away each year and if nothing else arrests the increase in passenger traffic then it is probably a good thing, and I would happily pay it (though probably not to the level that broadgage would feel is appropriate).

However, just as important is that recent reductions in car emissions have stopped and been reversed, as efficiencies in internal combustion engines have been offset by us buying more SUV's. This has coincided with the freeze in fuel duty for several years, which in real terms is now cheaper than it has been for many years. It's about time that policy was reversed, and possibly more aggressive action taken to incentivise smaller car purchases, unless fully electric. (Apologies, that's getting a bit off topic though.)
 
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2020, 09:08:22 pm »

Bristol wasn't able to maintain its direct flight to New York for more than a couple of years, and if it couldn't support that long haul destination on a scheduled basis then I can't see many others working for airlines either.

Things may have moved on a bit since then. Airlines are increasingly offering point-to-point services rather than hub-and-spoke, with long and lean flights taking people from nearer where they live to closer to where they want to go. You can be fairly confident that this is where Bristol Airport sees its expansion coming from.

This is a major part of the reason why Airbus caught a cold with the A380 - it was perfectly suited to hub-to-hub operations, but went into operation just as they were going out of fashion
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TonyK
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« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2020, 09:40:21 pm »

Bristol wasn't able to maintain its direct flight to New York for more than a couple of years, and if it couldn't support that long haul destination on a scheduled basis then I can't see many others working for airlines either. The big expansion of air traffic originating in the UK has been low cost airlines over the last 25 years offering a multitude of predominately European destinations from regional airports  that before would have (in the south) required a trip to LHR or LGW.  Now some of this traffic has replaced charter airlines and package holidays, but much of it has encouraged more frequent short (2 or 3) day trips to Europe, which were much less common before, due to cost and inconvenience of airport (stag and hen weekends being just one example, a romantic weekend to a cultural capital being another ).

Is this increase in travel a good thing or not?  Well, as well as the environmental impacts, several cities are beginning to complain about being overwhelmed by tourists, so maybe not.  But how do you put the genie back in the bottle? It's clear that APD currently doesn't have enough of an impact to suppress demand, and so I would be in favour of a significant increase, although politically it will be unpopular, with bleating that hard working Joe and Jane's fortnight in the sun will cost more. But if it makes people think twice about several weekend flyaway breaks away each year and if nothing else arrests the increase in passenger traffic then it is probably a good thing, and I would happily pay it (though probably not to the level that broadgage would feel is appropriate).

However, just as important is that recent reductions in car emissions have stopped and been reversed, as efficiencies in internal combustion engines have been offset by us buying more SUV's. This has coincided with the freeze in fuel duty for several years, which in real terms is now cheaper than it has been for many years. It's about time that policy was reversed, and possibly more aggressive action taken to incentivise smaller car purchases, unless fully electric. (Apologies, that's getting a bit off topic though.)
 

The Continental Airlines flights from New York were done using Boeing 757s, and ceased flying in November 2010. They were very popular and relatively full, but the business model depended on a larger number choosing business class travel than actually did. The 12 business class seats meant a loss of 28 seats compared to the all-economy class layout of the aircraft. Carry all economy passengers, and you would find weight increased, and fuel consumption with it. A few thousand dollars in fares on a $150 million machine doesn't sound a lot, but on such margins are profit and loss decided.

Bristol now has seasonal direct transatlantic flights courtesy of Tui, heading for Florida, Mexico, and Dominican Republic in 787-800 Dreamliners. They hold more people, and are a bit nippier than the 757. If it all goes well, other destinations with other airlines could be on the way after the appeal. Bristol is authorised for Code E aircraft, which also includes A330, despite the short runway. As Red Squirrel says, joining popular dots on maps is getting popular. It's a shame about the A380 - I have flown on them twice. They are more comfortable even in economy and my sister's nephew drives them for a living, but they were built to serve a market that started to disappear just as they entered service, thanks in part to the A350, built by the same company. They will make lovely personal aircraft for the mega rich, with room for the entire harem, plus everyone who might launch a coup in the absence of the ruler.
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« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2020, 10:42:05 pm »


The Continental Airlines flights from New York were done using Boeing 757s, and ceased flying in November 2010. They were very popular and relatively full, but the business model depended on a larger number choosing business class travel than actually did. The 12 business class seats meant a loss of 28 seats compared to the all-economy class layout of the aircraft. Carry all economy passengers, and you would find weight increased, and fuel consumption with it. A few thousand dollars in fares on a $150 million machine doesn't sound a lot, but on such margins are profit and loss decided.

Bristol now has seasonal direct transatlantic flights courtesy of Tui, heading for Florida, Mexico, and Dominican Republic in 787-800 Dreamliners. They hold more people, and are a bit nippier than the 757. If it all goes well, other destinations with other airlines could be on the way after the appeal. Bristol is authorised for Code E aircraft, which also includes A330, despite the short runway. As Red Squirrel says, joining popular dots on maps is getting popular. It's a shame about the A380 - I have flown on them twice. They are more comfortable even in economy and my sister's nephew drives them for a living, but they were built to serve a market that started to disappear just as they entered service, thanks in part to the A350, built by the same company. They will make lovely personal aircraft for the mega rich, with room for the entire harem, plus everyone who might launch a coup in the absence of the ruler.
I don't disagree that long haul holiday destinations will continue from Bristol and possibly increase, but I'm not convinced that there's enough inward or outward demand for a regular scheduled service to a LH destination (although I note that Cardiff has Qatar). As you say, it's the Business Class traffic that makes or breaks a route.

Yes the A380 is very nice inside, both upstairs and down, although I prefer the A350 ambience and comfort (and the 787 too). The 787 seems to be at the sweet spot for long haul charter flights, and it's noticeable how tour operators have been keen to emphasise use of the aircraft.  Not sure what the charter ones are like at the front though compared with scheduled services - presumably something akin to Premium?
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« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2020, 08:09:54 am »

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Cardiff has Qatar

Qatar Airways are seen by some who folllow the industry as a bit of a vanity project for the rulers, and some of their route launches have begged the question as to whether they are bothered whether they make money or not.

Cardiff was arguably one of those (and of course came with support from the Welsh Govt), but in December (the latest month for which I have seen figures) 8,391 passengers used the route, up 30% on the same month a year earlier, and about a 75% load factor on the 787 employed on the route. Freight loadings have also apparently been good (often more money is made below the cabin floor than above it).

Who knows whether it's making money or not (yield management in the airline business is a science all on it's own) but after a shaky start it looks like the route is starting to do ok.
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TonyK
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« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2020, 08:54:31 pm »

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Cardiff has Qatar

Qatar Airways are seen by some who follow the industry as a bit of a vanity project for the rulers, and some of their route launches have begged the question as to whether they are bothered whether they make money or not.

Cardiff was arguably one of those (and of course came with support from the Welsh Govt), but in December (the latest month for which I have seen figures) 8,391 passengers used the route, up 30% on the same month a year earlier, and about a 75% load factor on the 787 employed on the route. Freight loadings have also apparently been good (often more money is made below the cabin floor than above it).

Who knows whether it's making money or not (yield management in the airline business is a science all on it's own) but after a shaky start it looks like the route is starting to do ok.

I hadn't realised that it is a daily service. It seems to be very well used from that figure - is that passengers both ways?

A quick look at Flightradar24 for cardiff shows 116 flights in the next 7 days, to 19 airports in 9 countries, with Amsterdam being the best served with 20 flights. For Bristol, the figure for the same 7 days is 610 flights to 76 airports in 26 countries. Amsterdam is again the busiest, presumably confirming its status as a popular hub*, but with 52 flights, over seven daily. Cardiff has a bit of catching up to do.

TC is right about freight - it pays well for the things that can't wait. Mail used to be a good earner for even budget carriers, but I'm not sure how it is faring in the digital age, where a gurning selfie before a famous beauty spot posted on Instagram seems to have usurped the traditional "Weather is here, wish you were beautiful" postcard, usually arriving just after your tan has faded.

Yes the A380 is very nice inside, both upstairs and down, although I prefer the A350 ambience and comfort (and the 787 too).

I have yet to fly on an A350, but I agree with the thoughts on the A380 and 787. I have read that Airbus is slowing production of the A330 in favour of more economic, efficient, and environmentally less unsound models. It seems a very short time ago that the A330 was hailed as the economic, efficient and environmentally less unsound replacement for the 767, but things seem to move quickly these days. BA is phasing out its 747s, with a view to retiring the last by 2024. The A340 is also losing ground as airlines ditch 4-engined aircraft in favour of twin engined craft with ETOPS 180 rating or better. This is the Extended Twin Operations system, giving the maximum flying time an aircraft with two engines can fly away from a diversionary airport over sea or other places where you couldn't land a plane. The A350 has ETPS 370 ceritification, meaning that it can fly up to 6 hours 10 minutes from the nearest airport, which doesn't even rule out Antarctica. 3 and 4 engined planes are now superfluous, giving airlines that still operate them the cost of maintaining extra engines.

*The one time I tried this was a flight to Los Angeles from Bristol via Schiphol. It would have worked well, with only 45 minutes on Dutch soil, had someone not backed a lorry into the back of the DC10 we were supposed to be flying to the US on. I knew it was 7.30 when we eventually got to the hotel at the other end, but I didn't know which 7.30.)
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 09:18:14 pm by TonyK » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2020, 01:00:25 pm »

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I hadn't realised that it is a daily service. It seems to be very well used from that figure - is that passengers both ways?

It's 5 weekly currently and goes up to daily some time during the Summer season (which starts when the clocks change at the end of March in the airline world). That is total passengers in and outbound on the route. Works out to not far off 200 people on every flight.

The KLM routes at Cardiff and Bristol have been there for years, very successfully (Bristol of course has Easyjet on the route also)

Quote
I have read that Airbus is slowing production of the A330 in favour of more economic, efficient, and environmentally less unsound models.

Airbus have breathed new life into the A330 with the "neo" (new engine option), which is basically a re-engined, more fuel-efficient evolution. It's been quite successful. It doesn't have the legs of the A350, but perfectly good for flights up to about 10 hours, which is why Virgin (for example) have ordered both - the A330 neo's to replace their current A330 "ceo's" (current engine option).

I have seen chatter that an A330neo runs about $20m cheaper than an equivalent A350, so will be a good option if the ultimate performance of the A350 isn't needed.
 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 07:47:00 pm by Thatcham Crossing » Logged
Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2020, 04:02:20 pm »

*The one time I tried this was a flight to Los Angeles from Bristol via Schiphol. It would have worked well, with only 45 minutes on Dutch soil, had someone not backed a lorry into the back of the DC10 we were supposed to be flying to the US on. I knew it was 7.30 when we eventually got to the hotel at the other end, but I didn't know which 7.30.)
I've done a few European flights via Schiphol but not for quite a number of years. On the last one, as I hurried from gate to gate I noticed lots of people clustered round TV screens. I remember the date, it was the eleventh of September...
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Tuesday had come down through Dundrum and Foster Avenue, brine-fresh from sea-travel, a corn-yellow sun-drench that called forth the bees at an incustomary hour to their bumbling.
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