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Author Topic: White diesel to be required for railway use ?  (Read 1213 times)
onthecushions
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« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2020, 08:05:52 pm »


IIHC,
The Chancellor exempted farming, rail and heating oil from the end of the "red" concession.

Pity...

OTC
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stuving
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« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2020, 10:22:33 pm »

The full words from the OOTLAR* say:
Quote
2.31 Fuel Duty – As announced at Budget 2020, fuel duty rates will remain frozen for the tax year 2020 to 2021. Fuel duty rates are set out in Annex A.

2.32 Red diesel: removing entitlement – As announced at Budget 2020, the government will legislate in Finance Bill 2021-2022 (and later secondary legislation) to remove the entitlement to use rebated heavy oil (known as red diesel) and rebated biofuels from all sectors that currently use it from April 2022, apart from the agriculture (including pisciculture, forestry and horticulture) and rail sectors and for use in non-commercial heating. The government will consult later this year on whether the entitlement to use red diesel and rebated biofuels is justified for any other users, and whether to align the proposed treatment of these rebated fuels with fuel oil and non-aviation kerosene.

Note, that's next year's Finance Bill, not the one due out Thursday next week. What does happen this year is a baffling technical change to the red/white diesel rules for leisure vessels. This has its origins in attempts to stop people moving between European countries gaming the different approach to applying similar tax rules, leading up to an ECEJ decision.

*Yes, I'm sure it used to be called something else. Anyway, it's the Treasury's "full" set of words corresponding to the Chancellor's PR-tinged version. It's split into three sections - what's in the budget speech and not implemented in this year's Finance Act, what's in both, and what's in the FA but wasn't in the budget. Plus there's technical annexes.
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rower40
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« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2020, 11:26:34 pm »

Until April 2006, the three-phase electricity supply had phases coloured red, blue and yellow.  We then moved to the CENELEC standard of brown, black and grey.  With Brexit, we can go back to easily-recognised colours - and the red electricity won't be taxed as much, and can be used for off-road vehicles and trains.
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ellendune
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« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2020, 12:20:04 am »

Until April 2006, the three-phase electricity supply had phases coloured red, blue and yellow.  We then moved to the CENELEC standard of brown, black and grey.  With Brexit, we can go back to easily-recognised colours - and the red electricity won't be taxed as much, and can be used for off-road vehicles and trains.

Ah but CENELEC is not an EU organisation and BSI is the UK member, not the government so we have not left it. 
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2020, 01:28:22 am »

Until April 2006, the three-phase electricity supply had phases coloured red, blue and yellow.  We then moved to the CENELEC standard of brown, black and grey.  With Brexit, we can go back to easily-recognised colours - and the red electricity won't be taxed as much, and can be used for off-road vehicles and trains.

Ah but CENELEC is not an EU organisation and BSI is the UK member, not the government so we have not left it. 

A good example, along with with a whole load of other things, that in the post Brexit world "Can now go back to how they used to be!", when in fact they can't!
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ellendune
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« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2020, 08:00:51 am »

Of course the reason why your example cable colours would not be practical is that the UK is a small market and "special" products are more expensive. CENELEC standards are increasingly moving over to be IEC standards (International Electrotechnical Standards) and so this will get more pronounced. The most noticable thing for which there is widespread continued national variation is the domestic power socket/plug.  Domestic supply Voltages are now typically either 220-240V 50Hz or 110-120V 60Hz with 230V 50Hz being the most common. 
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broadgage
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« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2020, 12:29:31 pm »

The old UK colour code for 3 phase was becoming less sensible as the years went by.
In particular the use of blue for one phase, when blue was becoming standard for neutral in so many other places.

Yellow was also becoming less sensible on account of yellow being prohibited in in mains voltage flexibles.

One phase pretty much had to be brown, as that had been used for decades in flexibles.
For the other two phases, it was easier to list the colours that were unsuitable.

Green, recently used for earth
Black, recently used for neutral
White, too widely used overseas for neutral
Yellow, prohibited in flexibles, so better avoided for installation cables also.
Any striped or bi colour, prohibited in flexibles except for green/yellow earth. So best avoided in cables.

Possibilities included.
Grey, not recently widely used for anything else (limited use for earth in some places)
Orange, not widely used for anything else. (limited use for phase in USA)
Violet, not widely used for anything else, slight risk of confusion with blue neutral.
Red, already accepted for live/phase in UK and some other places, limited historical use for earth in Europe.

A better choice for 3 phase IMHO, would have been brown, orange, and violet. Limited existing use of orange for phase in USA no problem. Brown and orange might possibly be confused, but confusing one phase with another is less bad than confusing phase with earth or neutral.
Violet would have to be well specified to be as "un blue" as possible.
Alternatively, brown, orange, red. Not ideal due to limited legacy use of red for earth in Europe.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Oxonhutch
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« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2020, 05:23:13 pm »

Domestic supply Voltages are now typically either 220-240V 50Hz or 110-120V 60Hz with 230V 50Hz being the most common. 

I love the pragmatism of compromise in these international negotiations and adaptation of standards. UK voltages tend to range from 230V to 250V (mine measured 251V just now) and the Continent from 220V to 240V. A standard of 230V ± 6% wouldn't work, so to accommodate the high UK end, the voltage standard was set at 230V (-6%, +10%) - sorted!
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rower40
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« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2020, 05:30:38 pm »

All this from the tongue-in-cheek idea of having "red" electricity!  Sorry for setting off this thread drift. Roll Eyes
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TonyK
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« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2020, 11:21:16 am »

What that Times article said, specifically, was:

"However, only farmers will be entitled to use the fuel [red diesel] under provisions being finalised for the budget on March 11. Mr. Sunak will justify ending the subsidy for hauliers, who use if for refrigeration units, and the construction industry, saying the measure is needed to improve urban air quality.

...The Treasury first consulted on restricting entitlement to red diesel in 2017, but Philip Hammond backed away from scaling it down.
"

So I guess that's the source of the rumour, though that doesn't mention railways per se - and neither do the gov.uk pages on this, which are not much use as a guide. However, that 2017 call for evidence make quite a good fact sheet, if you want one. Obviously there is more background to this than I for one realised (having missed that 2017 announcement, and the 2018 follow-up - the result of which is still awaited).

If it were true, then the ToCs would say that it is only an issue because of the government's failure to completely electrify the railway, that they only use the rolling stock they are given and have little choice, but that they will have to bow to the government's well thought out solution to the pollution problems with an unfortunate fuel surcharge on season tickets, doubling just before the next election. More details will be in the huge billboard advertisements outside every railway station, and on passenger information displays on every train. Which is why I think it isn't true.
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Now, please!
broadgage
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« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2020, 12:40:54 pm »

All this from the tongue-in-cheek idea of having "red" electricity!  Sorry for setting off this thread drift. Roll Eyes

Electricity starts of red, but turns black as it is used up. That is why we used a red wire for fresh electricity, and a black wire for the used electricity that is being returned for recycling. As any fule knoweth.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
stuving
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« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2020, 01:07:29 pm »

All this from the tongue-in-cheek idea of having "red" electricity!  Sorry for setting off this thread drift. Roll Eyes

Electricity starts of red, but turns black as it is used up. That is why we used a red wire for fresh electricity, and a black wire for the used electricity that is being returned for recycling. As any fule knoweth.

I know quite a few electrons who think otherwise ...
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TonyK
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« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2020, 09:43:16 pm »

I know quite a few electrons who think otherwise ...

You may indeed, and they may think otherwise, but those electrons can't be positive.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2020, 10:16:30 pm by TonyK » Logged

Now, please!
stuving
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« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2020, 11:36:33 pm »

I know quite a few electrons who think otherwise ...

You may indeed, and they may think otherwise, but those electrons can't be positive.

But they can be very particular, and they have direct, current experience and the potential to overcome any resistance put in their way.
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Gordon the Blue Engine
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« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2020, 09:21:15 am »

Electricity hasn’t started “red” for a long time.  It now starts brown and turns blue.  In some lighting circuits it might turn black or white on the way. 
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