Train Graphic
Great Western Passengers' Forum [home] and [about]
from GWR - Travel with confidence
Forum in and beyond Coronavirus
DfT Covid Travel Advice
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 tomorrow - Tuesday Club - ONLINE
03/10/20 - RailFuture Annual - ONLINE
09/10/20 - Travelwach Southwest
01/11/20 - Ashley Down Survey Closes
Random Image
Train Running Polls Acronyms/Abbreviations Station Comparator Rail news GWR co. site Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
September 28, 2020, 08:02:53 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most liked recent subjects
[158] HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general dis...
[89] Low pressure sodium lamps now hard to find.
[60] Princes Risborough to Chinnor
[56] Journeys between places with similar names
[38] The new way of running the rails - what would you LIKE in the...
[36] IRJ: £1.2bn rail upgrade proposed for southwest Britain
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Looking ahead - the positive board even as services reduce to meet lower demand  (Read 1986 times)
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 30674



View Profile WWW Email
« on: March 21, 2020, 04:16:56 pm »

"Looking ahead - 2020 to 2045" has been renamed "Looking forward - after Coronavirus to 2045"

As I write, public transport use is falling off a cliff - as are many other things we have been familiar with all of our lives.  Train and bus services are being reduced in number, trains in length too, and some stations are being shut completely.  Sadly, these reductions do make sense in most cases in the current situation.  But we need to watch carefully - someone pointed a news rticle out to me the other day "in ordinary times, this would be a headline, but today it's an opportiunity to bury bad news", and there are one or two total cuts I have found hidden in small print already where I wonder "will that even come back".  For the absence of doubt, the total cuts I have picked up thus far do not relate to GWR stations or lines, though my data is incomplete and it is very likely there could be more cutting back.

This "Looking forward" board is an opportunty for us to look forward to when we turn the corner - probably not weeks, most likely months hopefully less than years and work out what we should be asking for in terms of rebuilt public transport provision. Do we want to campaign to get back every single reduced service, or do we pragmatically want to accept that something better can be grown for the future even if it involves loosing a longstanding service such as the train to Chathill, Teeside Airport station, or the daily National Express Coach from Melksham to London which ceases after Monday and, reading the mood musing of the National Express at TravelWatch SouthWest earlier this month, the operator is probably relieved to be rid of.

A time of change is a time of opportunity - let's be ready to grab the positive opportunity with shovel-ready ideas when we start looking at the way back up.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Vice Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, and on the board of TravelWatch SouthWest.
Rhydgaled
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1409


View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2020, 07:05:31 pm »

Quoted from other topics:

* It makes sure sense to match supply with demand

* It makes huge sense to reduce exposure of staff with reduced schedules

* A side effect of reductions in public transport is reductions in climate change

* We are so indoctrinated with "use it or loose it" ... will it all, ever, come back?
I'm rather concerned about the financial impact on my local bus company. Will they still be around to run services if and when patronage recovers after the virus is brought under control? In climate change terms, the reduction in flying is probably doing wonders for the environment at the moment but:
Numbers of passengers are still dropping and from the many long distance trains I’ve seen over the last 24 hours, I would say numbers are now at 10-20% of what you would usually expect.  That’s not 10-20% less, but in total.
Earlier this week the traffic jam I pass on my way to work (heading in the opposite direction to me) was much the same length as it had been for months. By Friday (yesterday) that had dropped to about 50% of its pre-virus length so that is probably a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions too. However 50% is a much smaller dent in road traffic than the near-total loss of rail patronage IndustryInsider is reporting. Single-occupancy cars are of course a form of 'social distancing' compared to a bus or train. With a vaccine reportedly a year off and the fear of the virus I'm afraid that public transport demand may not fully recover for many years.

Sorry, not the positive future you were looking for, but it's important to recognise the risk that virus-shyness may lead pepole to avoid public transport. Hopefully, by identifying the risk ways can be found to mitigate it.
Logged

----------------------------
Don't DOO it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 30674



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2020, 09:41:44 pm »

.... Single-occupancy cars are of course a form of 'social distancing' compared to a bus or train. With a vaccine reportedly a year off and the fear of the virus I'm afraid that public transport demand may not fully recover for many years.

Sorry, not the positive future you were looking for, but it's important to recognise the risk that virus-shyness may lead pepole to avoid public transport. Hopefully, by identifying the risk ways can be found to mitigate it.

I'm not looking at how deep we fall (and that may indeed be deep - we can only guess) but how we protect and preserve on the way down and plan and partner for the best we can on the way back up.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Vice Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, and on the board of TravelWatch SouthWest.
ellendune
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3679


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2020, 09:58:47 pm »

It is difficult to find equivalent events in our history.  In the last century the two world wars come to mind and before that the black death.  All these events to a greater or lesser extent lead to a more egalitarian society. 

The black death saw the end of the feudal system - essentially the freeing of slaves. 

WW1 - a land fit for hero's was not so significant a change.

WW2 saw the welfare state, the National Heath Service, the 1944 Education Act and much more.

Where will this crisis lead us?
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 30674



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2020, 07:00:14 am »

It is difficult to find equivalent events in our history.  In the last century the two world wars come to mind and before that the black death.  All these events to a greater or lesser extent lead to a more egalitarian society. 

The black death saw the end of the feudal system - essentially the freeing of slaves. 

WW1 - a land fit for hero's was not so significant a change.

WW2 saw the welfare state, the National Heath Service, the 1944 Education Act and much more.

Where will this crisis lead us?

All three events you noted lasted five years ... is it the depth, duration, or area "under the curve" that has kicked such changes?   I'm answering a question with a question, and not suggesting an answer. 
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Vice Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, and on the board of TravelWatch SouthWest.
CyclingSid
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1001


Hockley viaduct


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2020, 07:58:37 am »

Quote
The black death saw the end of the feudal system - essentially the freeing of slaves.

I don't think we will see the end of economic feudalism that most have lived under for a century or more,
Logged
Robin Summerhill
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 826


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2020, 03:12:31 pm »

It is difficult to find equivalent events in our history.  In the last century the two world wars come to mind and before that the black death.  All these events to a greater or lesser extent lead to a more egalitarian society. 

The black death saw the end of the feudal system - essentially the freeing of slaves. 

WW1 - a land fit for hero's was not so significant a change.

WW2 saw the welfare state, the National Heath Service, the 1944 Education Act and much more.

Where will this crisis lead us?

I agree with most of that except your view on post-WW1. The Homes Fit For Heroes concept led to the Addison Act which introduced the concept of local authority provided social housing, which in turn led by the 1930s to a blitz on insanitary conditions. Also, at about the same time, pensions were first introduced (not that many actually got them because the qualifying age was 70 and most people had died before they got there)

But if you want me to get out my crystal ball I would think that there will be a large, if not vast, affect on commuting. As people increasingly work from home, and employers realise that the job still gets done and they can save substantial sums of money in office accommodation and office provision, I think that the concept will catch on.

I have thought for some time that when it comes to pollution and global warming, the elephant in the room is commuting. It is not that long ago that very few people outside London lived more than 3 or 4 miles from their place of work. Railway locomotive depots used to employ “knockers up,” boys who would go around on their bikes in the small hours to raise somnolent footplate staff from their slumbers. That wouldn’t be feasible today even if employment regulations still allowed 14 year old lads to be at work at 0300.

It is easy to pick on the aviation industry, but personally I wonder how much pollution we could stop or Co2 emissions we could save and how much global warming we could prevent if we could stop a few million people in the UK, let alone the rest of the world, jumping into their every morning and driving anything from half an hour to two hours to get to work, and then doing the same thig again in the evening for 48 weeks of every year? I would suggest there are quite a few transatlantic jumbo jet emissions totals in that lot.

We might just get the chance to find out before long.
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3361



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2020, 11:10:55 pm »

I am sorry to say, that I am not optimistic about the future of railways in the UK.
I have previously stated, before the coronavirus, that there seems to be a culture in the rail industry of "what downgrades can we get away with" rather than "what improvements can we make"

I fear that the virus will be used as a splendid excuse to make permanent any short term downgrades.

Pullman dining has been withdrawn, reasonably under the circumstances, but I doubt that it will return.
Night Riviera, likewise.
I have previously been very critical of downgrading intercity services to 5 car DMUs, with minimal luggage space, hard seats and no buffet.

For years, growing passenger numbers have been ignored in the rush to use shorter trains. A potential short term decline in numbers will be used to justify more cuts in both capacity and facilities.

A decade of rising numbers=short trains are fine, we hope to run more of them.
One year of falling numbers= Great, short trains are fine.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 8328


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2020, 12:32:41 am »

A time of change is a time of opportunity - let's be ready to grab the positive opportunity with shovel-ready ideas when we start looking at the way back up.

Glass half full.

I am sorry to say, that I am not optimistic about the future of railways in the UK.

Glass half empty.
Logged

To view my GWML Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5290


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2020, 06:43:52 am »

A time of change is a time of opportunity - let's be ready to grab the positive opportunity with shovel-ready ideas when we start looking at the way back up.

Glass half full.

I am sorry to say, that I am not optimistic about the future of railways in the UK.

Glass half empty.

Glass of Port, presumably? 😉
Logged
Bmblbzzz
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3006


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2020, 08:11:46 am »

It is difficult to find equivalent events in our history.  In the last century the two world wars come to mind and before that the black death.  All these events to a greater or lesser extent lead to a more egalitarian society. 

The black death saw the end of the feudal system - essentially the freeing of slaves. 

WW1 - a land fit for hero's was not so significant a change.

WW2 saw the welfare state, the National Heath Service, the 1944 Education Act and much more.

Where will this crisis lead us?

All three events you noted lasted five years ... is it the depth, duration, or area "under the curve" that has kicked such changes?   I'm answering a question with a question, and not suggesting an answer. 
We don't yet know how long this epidemic will last, especially in terms of further waves of infection.
Logged

Tuesday had come down through Dundrum and Foster Avenue, brine-fresh from sea-travel, a corn-yellow sun-drench that called forth the bees at an incustomary hour to their bumbling.
GBM
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 617


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2020, 02:55:28 pm »

We know of one member who has a plentiful supply of most things now being sought.

He seemed to come in for some criticism/rebuke earlier for doing so.

Logged

Personal opinion only.  Writings not representative of any union, collective, management or employer. (Think that absolves me...........)
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 3361



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2020, 02:54:02 pm »

A time of change is a time of opportunity - let's be ready to grab the positive opportunity with shovel-ready ideas when we start looking at the way back up.

Glass half full.

I am sorry to say, that I am not optimistic about the future of railways in the UK.

Glass half empty.

Glass of Port, presumably? 😉

Port is now rationed to three bottles per customer for home delivery, if indeed a delivery can be booked.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page