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Author Topic: Portishead Line reopening for passengers - ongoing discussion  (Read 389157 times)
Red Squirrel
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« Reply #270 on: April 24, 2013, 15:52:30 »

Well maybe new level crossings aren't completely impossible. According to the ORR» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about):

Quote

^ Except in exceptional circumstances, there should be no new level crossings on any railway.

(see http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/319.pdf)


So the argument we need to make is that these are exceptional circumstances, particularly given the risk of passengers (or 'commuters' as they seem almost invariably to be called these days) being flattened as they rush across the road to get to the station.
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #271 on: April 24, 2013, 16:50:24 »

Looking at some pictures of the Manchester tram extensions, it strikes me that there are lots of new road / rail level crossings. What makes them acceptable when a very low speed (as I understand it) at Portishead would not be?  Would Portishead be better served by tram / light rail vehicles which reached Temple Meads from the Cumberland Road area via the south side of the Floating Harbour and Redcliffe Way - or even Welsh Back and Victoria Street?

Yes, the Portishead trains could easily take this crossing at very low speed. As for tram or light rail... is your tongue planted firmly in your cheek? You mean like this:

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In the 1970's Richard Cotterel (then an Euro MP (Member of Parliament)) proposed an Avon Metro on the lines of the Tyne & Wear Metro. This would have comprised a central underground section and the use of parts of the BR (British Rail(ways)) track with lines to Yate, Bath, Weston-Super-Mare, Portishead, Severn Beach & the Henbury loop. This idea was never adopted largely due to cost and also Avon County Council was at that time committed to road building as the solution to traffic problems.

(see: http://www.tramdev.clara.net/hist.htm)

...don't get me started! There is a protected route from Temple Meads via Redcliff(e) and The Grove to the Centre; from there you'd start to tangle with the SWCBWSCIBCBCR (Somewhere in the West Country But We Shan't Call It Bristol Corporation Bus on a Concrete Road, otherwise known as the Bust Rabid Transit) scheme (presuming you could find a way across Prince St Bridge). George Ferguson's attempt to re-route the SWCBWSCIBCBCR via Cumberland Road to Temple Meads is laudible because (a) it's a better way to go, and (b) it may (we can hope) scupper the whole misbegotten scheme.

Oh, I seem to have started.
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« Reply #272 on: April 24, 2013, 17:48:51 »

Enjoying your posts very much RS. You seem to be a real chip off the ' Four Track Now' block ! Believe me that's a real compliment !
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grahame
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« Reply #273 on: April 24, 2013, 18:26:51 »

Looking at some pictures of the Manchester tram extensions, it strikes me that there are lots of new road / rail level crossings. What makes them acceptable when a very low speed (as I understand it) at Portishead would not be?  Would Portishead be better served by tram / light rail vehicles which reached Temple Meads from the Cumberland Road area via the south side of the Floating Harbour and Redcliffe Way - or even Welsh Back and Victoria Street?

Yes, the Portishead trains could easily take this crossing at very low speed. As for tram or light rail... is your tongue planted firmly in your cheek?

Yes, it is ... and it's also pointing out the irony of potentially different rules / guidelines for essentially the same crossing, depending on whether they turn left or go straight ahead the the Cumberland Basin.
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« Reply #274 on: April 24, 2013, 18:46:36 »

Tactically, it's best to fasten on the (challengeable by their own admission) ORR» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) maxim.  I think trying to alter the route (now) as above will muddy the waters.

On the level crossings, I am sure they had a location more like Athelney or Ufton Nervet in mind and also possibly at a station pedestrian access like the one where the two girls were killed.   The latter case can be solved with the measures that are now being implemented. 
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TonyK
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« Reply #275 on: April 24, 2013, 20:44:55 »

Enjoying your posts very much RS. You seem to be a real chip off the ' Four Track Now' block ! Believe me that's a real compliment !

Thanks for what I take as a compliment, Chuffed. Me and my bushy-tailed new firend  are going to get on fine, even if redsquirrel did beat me to the post with almost identical ripostes to those crazy objections to Portishead railway.

Manchester has a lot of crossing points with the tramway, all signal controlled. Trams are a familiar sight, and have been for over 20 years. This doesn't make accidents a mere historical footnote, but they are unusual. Much of the existing network runs on former heavy rail alignments, although the newer extensions to Oldham, Rochdale, Ashton and Didsbury will have more extensive on-street running when finished. Just about all major crossings are signal controlled, using TMS (Tram Management System), a new bespoke control system that has not been without problems. It seems to have been sorted now, and will enable short headways, as well as powering passenger information displays.

In Blackpool, when the tramway was renewed and modernised last year, a lot of the crossing points were closed, and those that remain were equipped with signals. These are standard traffic lights for motorists, and matrix LED signals for the trams. The new trams, helped also by a reduction in the number of stops, are faster than the heritage units. The lengthy closure, especially north of Little Bispham, where the track moves away from the seaside promenade, meant that drivers did not become accustomed to the new traffic signals. Within three weeks of the new service opening, a car was hit by a tram, as reported in the Blackpool Gazette. The husband of the shocked but unhurt driver called for an investigation in the cause of the accident, which was quickly found to be his wife going through a red light.

Crossings controlled by lights are acceptable only because of it being a light railway Network Rail would certainly not allow a similar crossing on a heavy rail system. I hope that for all the reasons of low speed and proximity to the terminus that they can be persuaded that this is an exceptional case, that can be allowed a crossing. Even then, there will be grumblings from the nearest homes, because of the warning bells. Also, NR» (Network Rail - home page) do not really sound as keen as the local councils on reopening the railway, although they will do it if told to. I really do think that the Waitrose site is crucial to the whole project, both now and from a future expansion point of view.

Blackpool's new tramway has surpassed expectations. It has recently signed up to a sort of ITA (Integrated Transport Authority), although it covers parts of Lancashire it does not actually border upon. It has also announced its intention to apply for funds to run the tramway inland to Blackpool North station. Look at the track outside North Pier, and you will see points leading nowhere - yet. Taking the long view is always a good idea, except within the Greater Bristol area
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« Reply #276 on: April 24, 2013, 22:13:15 »

FTN says
Quote
I hope that for all the reasons of low speed and proximity to the terminus that they can be persuaded that this is an exceptional case, that can be allowed a crossing. Even then, there will be grumblings from the nearest homes, because of the warning bells.

I think the local naysayers will complain about anything that disturbs their peace.  The railway will encroach on a very pleasantly calm corner of Portishead where the level crossing or Option 2 station will be located and I have some sympathy with the dramatic changes that will be wrought there.  There is also a nursing home nearby, but the busy traffic roundabout with constantly accelerating diesel and petrol engines much of everyday must contribute more noise than an intermittent level crossing alarm and comparatively infrequent trains accelerating away from a low speed crossing will.

I return to my earlier point: plans for the revival of this railway have been in the pipeline for long before most people in the immediate area bought their homes, so my sympathy is very limited. 
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #277 on: April 24, 2013, 22:39:01 »

Hmm.  Roll Eyes

Quote
Also, NR» (Network Rail - home page) do not really sound as keen as the local councils on reopening the railway, although they will do it if told to.

I have it on very good authority (from someone very senior at Network Rail, who Lee and I buttonholed at a meeting in Bristol some time ago!) that Network Rail are in fact quite happy to proceed with the reopening of the Portishead Line - provided the necessary funding is made available.  Lips sealed
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William Huskisson MP (Member of Parliament) was the first person to be killed by a train while crossing the tracks, in 1830.  Many more have died in the same way since then.  Don't take a chance: stop, look, listen.

"Level crossings are safe, unless they are used in an unsafe manner."  Discuss.
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« Reply #278 on: April 24, 2013, 23:42:35 »

Hmm.  Roll Eyes

I have it on very good authority (from someone very senior at Network Rail, who Lee and I buttonholed at a meeting in Bristol some time ago!) that Network Rail are in fact quite happy to proceed with the reopening of the Portishead Line - provided the necessary funding is made available.  Lips sealed

I made the point badly. NR» (Network Rail - home page) will certainly be happy to add to their estate, but I have read elsewhere that Portishead is not a scheme they have been actively pressing for. It is up to the local councils to woo DafT, and get the spondulicks organised. I bow, in any case, to your superior access, and am heartened by your response.


I suspect that a statue of Jimmy Savile would be more likely to be approved than a level crossing in the current climate.

Now then, now then, now then...
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #279 on: April 25, 2013, 00:02:45 »

... Portishead is not a scheme they have been actively pressing for.

That was also the gist of what Lee and I were told: however, Network Rail were, and are, happy to go along with any sufficiently funded scheme to reopen the line - and that's the issue.  Roll Eyes
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William Huskisson MP (Member of Parliament) was the first person to be killed by a train while crossing the tracks, in 1830.  Many more have died in the same way since then.  Don't take a chance: stop, look, listen.

"Level crossings are safe, unless they are used in an unsafe manner."  Discuss.
Red Squirrel
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« Reply #280 on: April 25, 2013, 09:03:52 »

Yes, it is ... and it's also pointing out the irony of potentially different rules / guidelines for essentially the same crossing, depending on whether they turn left or go straight ahead the the Cumberland Basin.

I seem to have stumbled into a Heffalump trap: A-ha!

...redsquirrel did beat me to the post with almost identical ripostes to those crazy objections to Portishead railway.

Sorry! I'm getting rather over-excited by all this; must take another red-and-white pill...

Taking the long view is always a good idea, except within the Greater Bristol area

Greater Bristol? I think you mean 'Great West' (or should it be 'Froomshire'?).

All this reminds me of a good old Bristol word 'tempry' - first applied IIRC (if I recall/remember/read correctly) to the wonderfully dreadful Meccano flyover that once linked Redcliff(e) Way with Temple Way; driving over it was like driving round the edge of a thruppenny bit. 'Tempry' essentially means 'it's not much cop, but it's the best we're going to get'. Could be applied to a poorly-located railway staion, or even more appositely to the BRT (Bus Rapid Transit).

By the way, thanks for you kind remarks FTN and chuffed - very much enjoying this forum.
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« Reply #281 on: April 25, 2013, 15:13:19 »

All this reminds me of a good old Bristol word 'tempry' - first applied IIRC (if I recall/remember/read correctly) to the wonderfully dreadful Meccano flyover that once linked Redcliff(e) Way with Temple Way

Like most Bristolians, I come from somewhere else, but have spent more than half my life here - over 35 years, I realise to my astonishment. I wouldn't be here if I didn't like the place, but it is certainly frustrating at times. A niece working on opening a new furniture place some years ago (I'm not saying which, but you get the Ikea) asked me to do a guided tour to introduce her colleagues from elsewhere to the city. I thoroughly enjoyed it. My research, though, showed that the history of Bristol from the time the Romans left Sea Mills has been a saga of having an idea, trying to do it on the cheap, then having to pay nasally to have someone clever put it right. Bristol is truly a brave and resourceful city, but it has been value-engineered by everyone in charge since Julius Caesar.

Look at the docks - William Jessop proposed, designed, and built it, before trying his hand unsuccessfully at flogging cameras. His wasn't the best plan, but it was cheaper than the others. Cumberland Basin was built, and the New Cut was dug (by two gentlemen of the Irish persuasion). It cost a fair bit more than the estimate, so the port had to charge more. making it less attractive as an alternative to Liverpool. At the same time, Pattersons Yard was opened, and built the SS Great Western, and then the Great Britain for Brunel - the latter being built without measuring the width of the lock gates first. So the SSGB spent over a year alongside, until the locks could be widened, before going on to prove that ships too big to get up the Avon were a worthwhile project, so sowing the seeds of the harbour's demise. Jessop's design, though, didn't give a reasonable flow of water through the docks, leading to silting problems, and not helping when cholera broke out. Enter IKB (Isambard Kingdom Brunel), with his brilliant, but expensive, Underfall Yard. If only they had asked him or his dad first.

"Tempry" also describes the prefabs, built after the Luftwaffe had finished their attempt at urban renewal. By the time anyone got around to replacing them, some people had lived in them for over 30 years, and had lavished money on them. Well, papered and painted. That is why, almost 70 years after the RAF (Royal Air Force) in Bristol last heard a shout of "Bunch of monkeys on the ceiling, Sir, grab your egg and fours, let's get the bacon delivered!", there are still people living in "tempry" prefabs. Thank goodness for Amy Winehouse -"They tried to put me in a prefab, I said no, no, no!".

It is typical of Bristol that there have been calls made to replace that "tempry" flyover. I recall visiting the Grosvenor Hotel as part of my job, and having the disconcerting experience of watching a lorry pass the third floor window, with that scraping noise doing little to calm the nerves.

With Bust Rabid Transit, we see a value-engineered substitute for a decent transport system. A large part of the problem with public transport in the Greater Bristol area is the lack of a sensible transport hub covering all modes, and long bus routes going through the congested central area. The solution, BRT (Bus Rapid Transit), is a long bus route running through the congested central area. Only a fool would repeat the same mistakes over and over again, in the hope of success.

So with Portishead, the biggest mistake would be to abandon the original station site in the hope of saving a few quid. We would run the very real risk of seeing the first reopening of a closed railway line to prove unsuccessful. 10 years later, someone would say "If only we had stuck to the original plan, we could have extended the line into the town, and run tram-trains on it".

Manchester, when Alistair Graham cancelled the government's contribution to the Metrolink extension on cost grounds in 2004, reacted by starting a northern version of the cold war. A big pair of boxing gloves appeared on the balcony of the city hall, and on the masthead of Manchester Evening Post. All of the area's MPs (Member of Parliament), of all parties including labour, mobilised. No government minister came to Manchester for any reason without spending the first half of his visit being lobbied about Metrolink, interviewed by the MEN first about Metrolink, and being given the guided tour of Metrolink, including long stops to show where the new routes would have been. Not even Alistair Darling could stand being given the cold shoulder for long, and he relented. Given similar treatment, our local councils' attitude has been "What a pity. Can we have something cheaper instead, please?" Don't do this with Portishead, for heaven's sake!

The dates and names are accurate. I may have changed some of the facts to protect the guilty.
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« Reply #282 on: April 25, 2013, 18:45:48 »

Fascinating observations FTN. Ever thought about being a guide on the open top bus in your own imitable style ??! Huh
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« Reply #283 on: April 25, 2013, 18:50:01 »

Oops ....I meant INimitable .... Embarrassed
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TonyK
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« Reply #284 on: April 25, 2013, 19:02:22 »

More like irritable...
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