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Author Topic: Route Availability of GWR Steam Engines and Associated Matters  (Read 7937 times)
rogerpatenall
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« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2020, 11:43:27 am »

"A King is double red; a Castle is red..."

Huh??

Request to forum design. As well as a 'like' button, can we have a 'what on earth?' button.

All I can come up with is that it is a reference to Chess - which I have never mastered. If not, and after 24 hours, can I have another guess?
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ellendune
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« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2020, 12:27:51 pm »

I dimly recall that route availability for GWR (Great Western Railway) locos was shown with a coloured circle painted on the loco in line with the colours on the map.  Castles were originally in the most restricted class and so had a red circle, when kings came along they did not make another colour so they added an additional red circle so that was double red. 
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stuving
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« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2020, 12:50:29 pm »

Looking on Google maps I found the remnants of a masonry viaduct abutment in the River Tamar just by where the river runs parallel to Launceston rugby club, so that’s one former England to Cornwall crossing

Both lines to Launceston have left masonry (I'd call it a pier) in the river - and both are close to the rugby club (though one is closer to the sewage farm). Wind the clock back in Google Earth for a clearer view (less tree).
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eightf48544
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« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2020, 12:51:50 pm »

I dimly recall that route availability for GWR (Great Western Railway) locos was shown with a coloured circle painted on the loco in line with the colours on the map.  Castles were originally in the most restricted class and so had a red circle, when kings came along they did not make another colour so they added an additional red circle so that was double red. 

Just above the cast number plate on the cab side, also a Swindon Brass Foundry product!

Route availabilty was a very live topic in BR (British Rail(ways)) days, I remember panic when a LM (London Midland - recent franchise) Jubilee got to Brighton on a summer seaside special. SR(resolve) crew probably mistook it for a black five at Kensington Olympia or LM forgot to tell SR loco to have replacement at Kensington. Remember drivers were expected to drive any steam loco no specific training on different classes except hand me down knowledge of how to get the best out of certain classes.

GWR Halls were also tricky on SR, being banned from Salisbury to Eastleigh but allowed from Basingstoke to Portsmouth and Bournemouth. Something to do with the width over the cylinders and the crossover at Romsey which was between the platforms so if they ever had to use it for single line working the swing would make the cylinders clip the platform. Be prepared!
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 03:08:06 pm by SandTEngineer » Logged
martyjon
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« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2020, 01:17:32 pm »

6000 Class 6000 King George V also had a brass plaque above or below the two red circles to commemorate the visit to the USA. I have a Great Western Echo which shows me holding the plaques at Bulmers at Hereford where I also drove and fired the loco on the Bulmers network of sidings hauling the Bulmers Train.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 06:49:14 pm by martyjon » Logged
SandTEngineer
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« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2020, 01:32:46 pm »

"A King is double red; a Castle is red..."

Huh??

Request to forum design. As well as a 'like' button, can we have a 'what on earth?' button.

All I can come up with is that it is a reference to Chess - which I have never mastered. If not, and after 24 hours, can I have another guess?

Roger, its a reference to the debate about the colour of King class locomotives and their route classification.  If you read the topic completely you will see that we debated the locos being painted BLUE in the early BR (British Rail(ways)) days.  Of course if you try to explain that to any GWR (Great Western Railway) 'expert' they will argue and always believe they were only painted GWR GREEN!  The reference to Red or Double Red is the Route Availability classification, all GWR heavy locos being Red but the Kings being the heaviest of all GWR locos, being Double Red.  See here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Railway_Power_and_Weight_Classification

Here is a photograph showing the Double Red discs below the number plate on the cab side:



...and it was applied to early WR diesel locomotives as well:

« Last Edit: April 01, 2020, 12:25:20 pm by SandTEngineer » Logged
Red Squirrel
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« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2020, 02:11:30 pm »

There's a whole nother debate to be had as to what shade of green was used on GWR (Great Western Railway) locos. My Dad would get quite aerated if you had the temerity to suggest that they were painted Brunswick green, but according to some that's just what BR (British Rail(ways)) called GWR loco green. Anyone have a definitive answer?

Still at least they didn't let a colourblind man tell them that the best shade of green was, well, ochre: https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/50p476g
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eightonedee
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« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2020, 02:22:23 pm »

By the end of steam, all steam engines whatever their paintwork, looked dirty brown all over, sadly!
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SandTEngineer
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« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2020, 02:51:15 pm »

There's a whole nother debate to be had as to what shade of green was used on GWR (Great Western Railway) locos. My Dad would get quite aerated if you had the temerity to suggest that they were painted Brunswick green, but according to some that's just what BR (British Rail(ways)) called GWR loco green. Anyone have a definitive answer?

Heres one key reference: http://www.gwr.org.uk/liverieslococolour.html

Quote
Bob Shephard, owner and paint chemist of Precision Paints until 2004, writes in 2018:

"From my past researches, most railways were fairly particular about their loco and coach colours but not about wagon and building colours. The main problem with colour matching in pre-WW2 days was that all pigments were natural, and varied in shade. This made colour matching very time consuming, and accurate colour matching extremely difficult. The other problem was that locos and coaches all had varnish coats over the colour coat, because gloss finish paints were non-existent until synthetics came along. And because the varnishes were all natural, they were a dark brown shade so this effected the appearance of the paint coat. Locos also had 3 or 4 coats and it is the varnish in paint that discolours with heat. Thus loco paint was a different, darker, shade after about a week after application! You will see on the Phoenix catalogue that there are 4 different shades of GWR Loco Green listed. Actually there was only 1 shade between 1881 and 1945, and one shade prior to this, on the 1875 livery panel. (The 1875 shade was discontinued by Phoenix though).

When I colour matched them I had the original GWR livery panels from Swindon Works, to work with: 1875, 1881, 1906, 1928 and 1945 dated full livery panels, complete with lining. Where the varnish coats had chipped off, the actual colour of the Loco Green was the same from 1881 right up to the 1945 panel. The 1875 Loco Green was different to all the other panels – it was quite a bit darker, and a bit browner too. On the backs of all the panels were instructions for the number of coats of paint and varnish to be applied. As the panels got newer, so the number of varnish coats reduced from 5 coats on the 1875 panel to none on the 1945 panel. During WW2, the way of making synthetic paints, varnishes and pigments was discovered, and the last GWR panel – 1945 (must have been produced late in the year, after the war ended) was full gloss synthetic paint and was not varnished. This showed the true colour of GWR Locomotive Green, and it matched, exactly, all the other panels, from 1881, where the varnish coats had been chipped off.

As another 'aside', many refer to GWR Locomotive Green as Middle Chrome Green. This is not actually correct. Middle Chrome Green was the pigment colour used to make the GWR Locomotive Green, which is what it was called on the backs of all the panels."
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 03:02:32 pm by SandTEngineer » Logged
martyjon
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« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2020, 06:27:51 pm »

"A King is double red; a Castle is red..."

Huh??

Request to forum design. As well as a 'like' button, can we have a 'what on earth?' button.

All I can come up with is that it is a reference to Chess - which I have never mastered. If not, and after 24 hours, can I have another guess?

Roger, its a reference to the debate about the colour of King class locomotives and their route classification.  If you read the topic completely you will see that we debated the locos being painted BLUE in the early BR (British Rail(ways)) days.  Of course if you try to explain that to any GWR (Great Western Railway) 'expert' they will argue and always believe they were only painted GWR GREEN!  The reference to Red or Double Red is the Route Availability classification, all GWR heavy locos being Red but the Kings being the heaviest of all GWR locos, being Double Red.  See here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Railway_Power_and_Weight_Classification

Here is a photograph showing the Double Red discs below the number plate on the cab side:



...and it was applied to early WR diesel locomotives as well:



You can see in the picture of 6000 KING GEORGE V the brass plaques on the cab side that I held on the occasion of the unveiling of the restored loco at Bulmers Cider Factory in Hereford.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2020, 12:24:51 pm by SandTEngineer » Logged
ellendune
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« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2020, 09:18:23 pm »

Roger, its a reference to the debate about the colour of King class locomotives and their route classification.  If you read the topic completely you will see that we debated the locos being painted BLUE in the early BR (British Rail(ways)) days.  Of course if you try to explain that to any GWR (Great Western Railway) 'expert' they will argue and always believe they were only painted GWR GREEN!  The reference to Red or Double Red is the Route Availability classification, all GWR heavy locos being Red but the Kings being the heaviest of all GWR locos, being Double Red.  See here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Railway_Power_and_Weight_Classification

So I did remember correctly and that link now enables me to understand the map referenced in post #25 above.  Which now I see clearly indicates that Kings were not allowed over the RAB!
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rogerpatenall
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« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2020, 09:19:43 am »

Thanks for the explanation. As soon as I started to read - I certainly remember the classification codes - did not remember the colours. I also remember the short lived experiment in putting the driver's name on the cab side.
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eightf48544
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« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2020, 02:01:34 pm »

Going back to the Royal Albert Bridge and oher rail links to Cornwall. i remember reading an article in one of the mags on war time planning to use the Bodmin and Wadebridge link for freight if the RAB was destroyed.

Apparently a couple of paths were mapped out Okehampton -Wadebridge (reverse) - Bodmin General (reverse) - Bodmin Road (reverse), What the loads might have been wasn't mentioned. Would need several locos.
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broadgage
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« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2020, 01:05:15 am »

I recall hearing that a "King" DID» (Didcot Parkway - next trains) cross the Royal Albert bridge in the dark and contrary to the rules, owing to a mis-understanding.
There was considerable consternation when this was discovered. IIRC (if I recall/remember/read correctly) it was allowed back across the bridge, but uncoupled from the tender in order to reduce the total weight.

Is anyone able to confirm ?
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It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
GBM
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« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2020, 08:02:18 am »

I know I saw a 'King' in Truro shed many moons ago, despite being told that's impossible, etc!
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