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Author Topic: Penzance Turntable Breakdown  (Read 688 times)
chopper1944
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« on: March 23, 2020, 11:57:10 pm »

My brother recently sent me a copy of Steam Days with an article on Cornish Tales, The Steam Age and its people. It is based mainly on Truro station, which was well known to me between 1955-1962 as I had to travel from St. Austell to Truro for school. I seem to vaguely remember that there was a time when the turntable at Penzance was out of order and the larger locomotives came off their train at Truro and were replaced by various tank locomotives. The Cornish Riviera was usually headed by two 2-6-2 locomotives complete with headboard. Does anybody remember this and when it occurred? There was usually a rush to see what "foreign" Castles, Halls, Counties and were at the Truro sheds during this time
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Umberleigh
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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2020, 05:00:29 pm »

Whilst I was born at the swan song of mainline steam in this country, I do ‘know’ that the King class locomotiveS were not permitted over the Royal Albert Bridge (Saltash) due to their weight and thus the 2-6-2s would have been Castles (or something smaller?)
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SandTEngineer
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2020, 06:37:23 pm »

Whilst I was born at the swan song of mainline steam in this country, I do ‘know’ that the King class locomotiveS were not permitted over the Royal Albert Bridge (Saltash) due to their weight and thus the 2-6-2s would have been Castles (or something smaller?)

I need to get my history books out, but I think that prohibition ended in 1960 when the RAB was strengthend?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 07:06:52 pm by SandTEngineer » Logged

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ellendune
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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2020, 08:03:28 pm »

Whilst I was born at the swan song of mainline steam in this country, I do ‘know’ that the King class locomotiveS were not permitted over the Royal Albert Bridge (Saltash) due to their weight and thus the 2-6-2s would have been Castles (or something smaller?)

I need to get my history books out, but I think that prohibition ended in 1960 when the RAB was strengthend?

I dimly recall that the RTC in Derby did some physical modelling (perspex scale model) of RAB not long before I was there in the late 1970's which resulted in strengthening works for 100 tonne china clay wagons. There was a paper in ICE proceedings in 1974 which fits that well. Wikipedia say this work was done in 1969 which fits my memory of what they said then.

IIRC more recently modern computer modelling discovered that this made it worse (I am sure I read that somewhere but cannot now find it) so the extra steel added in 1969 was all taken off and something different done by NR between 2011 and 2014. Does anyone else have a better memory of this?
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stuving
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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2020, 08:21:44 pm »

IIRC more recently modern computer modelling discovered that this made it worse (I am sure I read that somewhere but cannot now find it) so the extra steel added in 1969 was all taken off and something different done by NR between 2011 and 2014. Does anyone else have a better memory of this?

Well, there's some information on ... this forum ... such as NR press releases like this one. No too much engineering detail, but it lists:
Quote
Fast facts:
- Over 100 tonnes of new steelwork
- 40 diagonal bracings will be strengthened
- 132 load bearing cross girders will be repaired
- 205 original Brunel cross girders will be repaired
- 12 coats of old paint, dating to 1859, will be removed
- 4 coats of new paint will be applied
- 1,000 tonnes of grit blast abrasive will be extracted
- 1,800 individual steelwork repairs

and of course those 50,000 new bolts.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 09:41:34 pm by stuving » Logged
ellendune
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2020, 09:04:14 pm »

Thanks stuving this was the bit I remembered:

More analysis here

Quote
Brunel's Royal Albert Bridge is the only rail link between Cornwall and the rest of Britain. Refurbishing it is a complex engineering project.
snip...
Load analysis
Part of the works will involve removing the lower diagonal braces, which were added in the 1970s. 'This was the result of analysis carried out at the time using perspex models loaded with weights,' says Lawlor. 'It was not until about 10 or 15 years ago that we had an actual idea of how the structure worked with modern computing techniques, because it is a highly redundant structure and the load paths are numerous, so trying to consider how the bridge worked when a load went across was too difficult for a long time.

'In the 1970s after analysis they added the lower diagonal braces. We have now discovered that some of the members are bent. On analysis you can see that they are not behaving in the way they were intended to, so they are fairly redundant in their current condition. We are taking those off and reproducing their tension with some strengthening work elsewhere, such as the hanger tops. These cracked every 20-25 years in some locations as a result of trains going over the bridge. We are strengthening those areas to address this cracking issue.'

snip...

I remember seeing the persex model in the 1970's at Derby. 


Whatever if the original strengthening work was done in 1969 - doubt if the Kings were permitted across the RAB before then end of steam.
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GBM
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2020, 09:39:07 pm »

Um yes.
I remember seeing a King at Truro shed almost at the end of the steam era on Sunday afternoon.
Dad was driving back home and we saw steam coming from the line, so parked up and went on the platform.
King Edward (or was there a Henry?) looking very dirty and sad.
Wasn't really into train spotting, so didn't note anything else.
Just sticks in my mind.
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chopper1944
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« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2020, 07:48:44 am »

There were no King Class locomotives seen at this time due to RAB limitations, Truro had the nearest operational turntable when the Penzance turntable was out of action.
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Umberleigh
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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2020, 06:11:30 pm »

Um yes.
I remember seeing a King at Truro shed almost at the end of the steam era on Sunday afternoon.
Dad was driving back home and we saw steam coming from the line, so parked up and went on the platform.
King Edward (or was there a Henry?) looking very dirty and sad.
Wasn't really into train spotting, so didn't note anything else.
Just sticks in my mind.

I suppose a King could be towed across RAB without the weight of coal and water and then fired up elsewhere...?
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martyjon
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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2020, 08:52:08 pm »

Um yes.
I remember seeing a King at Truro shed almost at the end of the steam era on Sunday afternoon.
Dad was driving back home and we saw steam coming from the line, so parked up and went on the platform.
King Edward (or was there a Henry?) looking very dirty and sad.
Wasn't really into train spotting, so didn't note anything else.
Just sticks in my mind.

I suppose a King could be towed across RAB without the weight of coal and water and then fired up elsewhere...?

I traversed the RAB behind a double headed King / Castle combo railtour as well as a single King to Par where the King was turned, put on the back end and hauled by a 66 to Falmouth Docks where the King shattered the peace leaving there with the 66 providing omph at the back end. Has a King ever visited Falmouth other than on that occasion ?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 06:46:40 pm by martyjon » Logged
grahame
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« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2020, 06:45:34 am »

Please forgive someone who (sshhh!) was brought up on 4EPBs - but how much difference really is there between a Castle and a King?  (Question asked in ex GWR locomotive terms, obviously)

A picture search gave me these link - not copying them here as I'm not getting into the slippery road of purchasing licenses.

https://www.philt.org.uk/PreservationScene/GWR/i-MXWzt5r

https://www.philt.org.uk/PreservationScene/GWR/i-T83kScd

Looks to me like a King is blue and a Castle is green ... and that a King's boiler is slightly less tapered so that it's bigger at the front end.  I'm notoriously blind - have I missed something else?
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ellendune
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« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2020, 08:13:05 am »

Please forgive someone who (sshhh!) was brought up on 4EPBs - but how much difference really is there between a Castle and a King?  (Question asked in ex GWR locomotive terms, obviously)

The King is heavier - another 10 tons for the loco.  Another 3 tons axle load.  The increased power also presumably increased the dynamic load as well. 

Normally they were the same colour. 
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SandTEngineer
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« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2020, 02:56:04 pm »

Please forgive someone who (sshhh!) was brought up on 4EPBs - but how much difference really is there between a Castle and a King?  (Question asked in ex GWR locomotive terms, obviously)

The King is heavier - another 10 tons for the loco.  Another 3 tons axle load.  The increased power also presumably increased the dynamic load as well. 

Normally they were the same colour. 

Kings were painted Blue in early BR days though, weren't they?
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bradshaw
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« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2020, 03:15:13 pm »

Blue was the first colour used in BR days for the larger express locos, so all the King apparently, Duchess, Princess , A4, A3 and Merchant Navy classes. It was soon replaced by the BR locomotive green. Clan Line carried the blue livery from 1951 to 1953.
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smokey
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« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2020, 09:16:14 am »

Concerning Penzance Turntable, the recent new Long Rock depot building resulted in the last visible remains of the Turntable pit being lost,, which was the top of the pit wall approx 1/4 of the circle could be found near to the now removed rail oil delivery terminal.

I understand that back in the 1950's a King did work across the Royal Albert Bridge (RAB) into Cornwall, which got the Driver a BR Form 1 (Please Explain).

Not sure how said engine returned to England, guess drained of Water, or even put on skates to cross the RAB.

The RAB was strengthened in the 1960's of which most visible is the Horizontal Bracing that runs across each Arch Midway from first to last internal upright. there was also additional angle braces under the supporting chains at each end of each Arch, these were removed during the last repaint.
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