Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 11:35 19 Mar 2024
- Potholes leave nations' roads at 'breaking point'
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 tomorrow - WWRUG AGM
23/03/24 - Trains restart - Minehead
02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber

No 'On This Day' events reported for 19th Mar

Train RunningCancelled
09:50 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
10:41 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
17:00 Oxford to London Paddington
Short Run
10:38 London Paddington to Didcot Parkway
18:23 London Paddington to Banbury
19:45 Banbury to London Paddington
PollsOpen and recent polls
Open to 25/03 16:00 Easter Escape - to where?
Closed 2024-03-16 Should our rail network go cashless
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 19, 2024, 11:38:39 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[197] A daily picture from my recent travels
[103] Where would you recommend for an Easter Escape?
[54] Briefing on forthcoming changes - from GWR on 14.3.2024
[44] More travels ... more looking at how others do it ...
[42] M25 motorway issue: a most illuminating Twitter thread.
[38] 2024 Delays and Cancellations - North Cotswold Line
 
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Drop in passenger numbers - March 2020  (Read 3171 times)
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40648



View Profile WWW Email
« on: April 09, 2020, 03:10:52 »

Traffic level at Network Rail stations down by 94%

From the Cobra briefing:



Good (I think).

All my bets/guesses for passenger counts for the years 2019/20 and 2020/21 are off.  But numbers of lives are more important than numbers of passengers at the moment.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10081


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2020, 11:03:45 »

Many people I saw milling around Paddington the other day, and when I say many I mean around a couple of dozen at any one time on the whole station, were heading too and from the Sainsbury's in The Lawn.
Logged

To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4348


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2020, 11:07:46 »

Its all a bit perverse, for years its all been about passenger number growth and meeting that growth, currently its about driving passenger numbers down  Huh
Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
1st fan
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 402


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2020, 01:18:28 »

My mum who I occasionally bore stupid when talking about this and that had a good point. Are we* still paying for the hire of these trains despite no one travelling? Also If nobody is travelling by train do we need so many running? She lives quite close to the north Cotswold line and can see the trains. I was able to explain that key workers still need to travel etc. so trains still need to run. I don't know if we're still paying Hitachi et al for the hire of all the Class 800s. She said she would have added a clause to the agreement to cover this sort of thing. Specifically so the taxpayer isn't stuck with trains running around empty just because we're paying for them.

*We being the taxpayer.

So does anyone know if the Government can get a reduction through GWR (Great Western Railway) simply running 5 car sets only?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 01:33:36 by 1st fan » Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40648



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2020, 07:02:27 »

My mum who I occasionally bore stupid when talking about this and that had a good point. Are we* still paying for the hire of these trains despite no one travelling? Also If nobody is travelling by train do we need so many running? She lives quite close to the north Cotswold line and can see the trains. I was able to explain that key workers still need to travel etc. so trains still need to run. I don't know if we're still paying Hitachi et al for the hire of all the Class 800s. She said she would have added a clause to the agreement to cover this sort of thing. Specifically so the taxpayer isn't stuck with trains running around empty just because we're paying for them.

*We being the taxpayer.

So does anyone know if the Government can get a reduction through GWR (Great Western Railway) simply running 5 car sets only?

You raise some interesting thoughts that have probably struck others too.  I don't know, but let me make some slightly informed guesses ...

I would suspect that the IETs (Intercity Express Train) are not designed to sit unused in sidings for "months on end" and that each of the units needs to be run in service from time to time. If that suspicion is right, then switching all the 9 car sets off for some months would lead to a significant recommissioning issue when they are needed again; like to many things, when, if, and how fast are very unclear indeed at the moment.

It would be a very rare contract indeed on the IETs to have included a specific "what if there is a pandemic" clause; there may be "force majeure" clauses in there, mind.  Consider other long shots - "Earth is hit by meteor", "UK (United Kingdom) caught up in World War III which started when the USA seized Greenland from Denmark", "Climate change is pushed beyond the point of no return and large parts of the UK are permanently under water. Central London is abandoned and we have refugee camps for the displaced all across Wessex"; each so unlikely we can almost joke, but statistically possible. 

Then you have the corollary - do you actually want to drop the risk of these items onto the rolling stock company?   Will you be left with any rolling stock companies / expertise were you to drop them into it, and if you did, would they want to work with you?  I'm noting the desire of HMG to include the BR (British Rail(ways)) pension liability in new franchises last year, and virtually all the bidders walking away as an example of what could happen with RoSCOs (Rolling Stock Owning Company).

Frequency in the time of lockdown is an interesting one.  You cannot simply say "90% less passengers so 90% less trains", not even allowing for 3 x the space for each passenger (so 70% of the space needed) can you say "cut 2 trains out of 3".  You would make the service unusable for those important key people who must be able to get around. You also need to consider that a train observed at one point in its daily pattern of operation (diagram) to be pretty underused may well be busy at other points and with the best will in the world, analysis and adjustments to fit new flows, you will still have underused elements - always have, probably always will.  Happy to talk stats on that but I would be writing all day!
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
stuving
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7148


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2020, 09:35:36 »

It would be a very rare contract indeed on the IETs (Intercity Express Train) to have included a specific "what if there is a pandemic" clause; there may be "force majeure" clauses in there, mind.  Consider other long shots - "Earth is hit by meteor", "UK (United Kingdom) caught up in World War III which started when the USA seized Greenland from Denmark", "Climate change is pushed beyond the point of no return and large parts of the UK are permanently under water. Central London is abandoned and we have refugee camps for the displaced all across Wessex"; each so unlikely we can almost joke, but statistically possible. 

Not so rare, I think, and where force majeure is not explcitly defined then epidemics might be held to qualify. But the MARA (Master Availability and Reliability Agreement) and TARA (Train Availability and Reliability Agreement) do define it, as:
Quote
Force Majeure Event means the occurrence after the date of signature of this Agreement of any of the following:

  (a) war, armed conflict or civil war (whether declared or undeclared);
  (b) riot or civil unrest or commotion;
  (c) any act of terrorism or a specific threat of terrorism;
  (d) nuclear accident, chemical or biological contamination or ionising radiation;
  (e) lightning, earthquake or storm;
  (f) explosions, fire or flooding;
  (g) the TSP (Train Service Provider) being unable to procure a supply of Fuel in circumstances where there is a general and widespread shortage in supply; or
  (h) Industrial Action, including that relating to a Trade Dispute other than TSP Industrial Action,

if and only to the extent that such event is not caused by the Affected Party;

The only one of those that might count is "biological contamination", and that's moot. But I suspect the government's powers to intervene lie elsewhere.
Logged
1st fan
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 402


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2020, 12:56:49 »

Thank you both for your answers I've explained them. She's just concerned these trains are costing us money and running around empty. Hopefully the bods at the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) have got this covered by something like the clause Stuving found. She's never travelled on one of these trains only on HST (High Speed Train) or a Turbos.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 13:02:25 by 1st fan » Logged
TaplowGreen
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7723



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2020, 17:57:10 »

My mum who I occasionally bore stupid when talking about this and that had a good point. Are we* still paying for the hire of these trains despite no one travelling? Also If nobody is travelling by train do we need so many running? She lives quite close to the north Cotswold line and can see the trains. I was able to explain that key workers still need to travel etc. so trains still need to run. I don't know if we're still paying Hitachi et al for the hire of all the Class 800s. She said she would have added a clause to the agreement to cover this sort of thing. Specifically so the taxpayer isn't stuck with trains running around empty just because we're paying for them.

*We being the taxpayer.

So does anyone know if the Government can get a reduction through GWR (Great Western Railway) simply running 5 car sets only?

You raise some interesting thoughts that have probably struck others too.  I don't know, but let me make some slightly informed guesses ...

I would suspect that the IETs (Intercity Express Train) are not designed to sit unused in sidings for "months on end" and that each of the units needs to be run in service from time to time. If that suspicion is right, then switching all the 9 car sets off for some months would lead to a significant recommissioning issue when they are needed again; like to many things, when, if, and how fast are very unclear indeed at the moment.

It would be a very rare contract indeed on the IETs to have included a specific "what if there is a pandemic" clause; there may be "force majeure" clauses in there, mind.  Consider other long shots - "Earth is hit by meteor", "UK (United Kingdom) caught up in World War III which started when the USA seized Greenland from Denmark", "Climate change is pushed beyond the point of no return and large parts of the UK are permanently under water. Central London is abandoned and we have refugee camps for the displaced all across Wessex"; each so unlikely we can almost joke, but statistically possible. 

Then you have the corollary - do you actually want to drop the risk of these items onto the rolling stock company?   Will you be left with any rolling stock companies / expertise were you to drop them into it, and if you did, would they want to work with you?  I'm noting the desire of HMG to include the BR (British Rail(ways)) pension liability in new franchises last year, and virtually all the bidders walking away as an example of what could happen with RoSCOs (Rolling Stock Owning Company).

Frequency in the time of lockdown is an interesting one.  You cannot simply say "90% less passengers so 90% less trains", not even allowing for 3 x the space for each passenger (so 70% of the space needed) can you say "cut 2 trains out of 3".  You would make the service unusable for those important key people who must be able to get around. You also need to consider that a train observed at one point in its daily pattern of operation (diagram) to be pretty underused may well be busy at other points and with the best will in the world, analysis and adjustments to fit new flows, you will still have underused elements - always have, probably always will.  Happy to talk stats on that but I would be writing all day!

You would hope (staff absence notwithstanding, I'm unclear as to whether Hitachi mechanics are considered "essential workers") that this downtime is being used constructively to undertake routine maintenance and to check all is running smoothly in order to ensure that when we reach "the other side", regular services can resume without loads of mechanical issues.

As to any liability, nearly all Business Interruption insurance has included a SARS/Pandemic exclusion since 2003 so I doubt GWR/Government whoever would have any recourse in this matter.
Logged
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10081


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2020, 18:21:56 »

You would hope (staff absence notwithstanding, I'm unclear as to whether Hitachi mechanics are considered "essential workers") that this downtime is being used constructively to undertake routine maintenance and to check all is running smoothly in order to ensure that when we reach "the other side", regular services can resume without loads of mechanical issues.

Yes, that is the plan for Hitachi depots (and at other maintenance locations no doubt).  Maintenance staff, for safety inspections primarily, are 'key workers'.  However what gets done is dependent on availability of staff and the ability to undertake the work with social distancing measures in place.  A fair few IETs (Intercity Express Train) are still out and about every day which should help prevent too many cobwebs.
Logged

To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4348


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2020, 07:05:59 »

HMG have made the continued operation of Public Transport essential to support key workers to get to and from work, to that extent HMG are funding the operations.
On the question of furloughing staff, certainly there is currently no intention as far as I am aware to do this for any NR» (Network Rail - home page) staff, it would just shift the wage bill from one public purse to another.  I suspect ToC n FoC are in a similar position.  The only people possibly at risk are contract / casual workers
Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page