Sweden set to be within easy reach of London by sleeper train

[whole diary]

[grahame]

From The Independent

Sweden could soon be within easy reach of London by overnight sleeper train under proposals drawn up by the country's rail planners.

Passengers from the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) would be able to catch the Eurostar to Brussels and then change directly onto a sleeper train, waking up in the city of Malmö the next morning.

The government of the Scandinavian country last year commissioned its rail authority Trafikverket to look at how to improve overnight connections to European cities – so that travellers can avoid flying when going abroad.

[TaplowGreen]

To be named the Thunberg Express 😉

[Chris from Nailsea]

... or the Thunberg Thunderbolt. 

[TaplowGreen]

... or the Thunberg Thunderbolt. 

Tintin Thunderbolt? Getting closer! 

[Bmblbzzz]

If it was direct from London, it would manage to pass through five monarchies in seven countries, quite a feat and probably only possible in northern Europe!

Whatever it's called, sounds like a good idea.

[eightf48544]

Would beat a trip a number of us did to Stockolm in the early 60s  to use our free passes.

Liverpool Street Harwich Hook of Holland (overnight) Hamburg Copenhagen Malmo (all day) Stockholm (overnight).

3  ferries one the recently closed Puttgarten Rodby trian ferry.

Thursday night to Tuesday morning 1 night in Stockholm.

[broadgage]

Sounds a good idea, but better still would a through sleeper between Sweden and London, and perhaps other places in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).
Changing trains is disliked, and for good reasons involving missed connections, cancellations, and the second train being overcrowded.

It is often stated that sleeper trains are less needed these days on account of the greater speed of day time trains. This may be partially true if considering only existing or recently closed sleeper routes.
We should however consider the opportunities for NEW sleeper routes, perhaps for journeys previously considered too long for a single night.
Sweden to the UK is a good example.

[IndustryInsider]

Sweden to the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) is a good example.

I'm very much in agreement that longer term the sleeper network to Europe from London could be (re)introduced, though there are significant hurdles. 

Cologne, Munich or Berlin to London maybe.  But I'm not sure Sweden to the UK is a good example.  If you look in more detail at the proposals then you would be leaving Malmo, third largest city in Sweden at the southern tip, with a population smaller than Bristol, at 19:40 to arrive London at 11:57 next day with a change at Cologne.  This is based on timings from a Jan 2020 article in the Independent, from Malmo to Cologne, so two changes, rather than the one Graham quoted today to Brussels with the one change, but I imagine they would be similar in terms of journey time.

If the sleeper runs all the way to London then it would obviously do so at a much slower speed than the Eurostar from Brussels, though no need to wait for connections, perhaps add at an hour?  If you wanted it to start from the larger Swedish cities of Stockholm or Gothenburg then you'd need to add 3-5 hours on top again, meaning a through journey from Stockholm to London would probably be around 20 hours.  I don't think that's viable.

[johnneyw]

Sweden to the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) is a good example.

  If you wanted it to start from the larger Swedish cities of Stockholm or Gothenburg then you'd need to add 3-5 hours on top again, meaning a through journey from Stockholm to London would probably be around 20 hours.  I don't think that's viable.

It may indeed not be viable but goodness, would I love to do a Stockholm or Gothenburg return trip on it. 

[grahame]

Sweden to the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) is a good example.

  If you wanted it to start from the larger Swedish cities of Stockholm or Gothenburg then you'd need to add 3-5 hours on top again, meaning a through journey from Stockholm to London would probably be around 20 hours.  I don't think that's viable.

It may indeed not be viable but goodness, would I love to do a Stockholm or Gothenburg return trip on it. 

In worst "crayonista" mode ... London to Europe sleeper - train divides (Brussels or Lille?) with portions to Copenhagen, Berlin, Munich and Marseilles.    Perhaps income train from Paris to the division point offering ongoing service to Copenham and Berlin too.  The fun of some old fashioned shunting in the middle of the night.

[johnneyw]

In worst "crayonista" mode ... London to Europe sleeper - train divides (Brussels or Lille?) with portions to Copenhagen, Berlin, Munich and Marseilles.    Perhaps income train from Paris to the division point offering ongoing service to Copenham and Berlin too.  The fun of some old fashioned shunting in the middle of the night.

Yes please!

[grahame]

Original story also in the Railway Gazette with more technical data

I'll quote just one section - "Preferred Route" ... other sections are "Market Study", "Practical Hurdles" and "Direct Award"

Assuming that various legal, technical and operational hurdles can be overcome, Trafikverket says an ‘appropriate first step’ would be to procure an overnight service to Germany and Belgium via Denmark. In its interim report issued on January 15, Trafikverket had proposed a pilot route linking Malmö and Köln. However, further investigation found that it would be possible to extend the service to Brussels, according to Head of Unit Anna Fällbom. ‘Based on capacity and technical aspects, that is more complex, but it is still possible.’ Fast day connections would be available from Köln to other parts of Europe, including Paris.

In terms of train paths, the report notes that capacity is limited in Hamburg, Köln and Brussels in both mornings and early evening, so it may be necessary to be ‘flexible with the timetables’. While it would be desirable for the night train to link Stockholm to Brussels, Trafikverket says it would be ‘difficult to achieve reasonable departure and arrival times’. End-to-end journey time would be ‘at best 17 h’, although this could be cut by 2 h when the Fehmarn Belt fixed link opens.

A shorter alternative might be a service from Stockholm to Hamburg, although this could be impacted by Snälltåget’s plan to operate a Stockholm – Malmö – København – Hamburg – Berlin overnight train from 2021.

[eightonedee]

Cologne, Munich or Berlin to London maybe.  But I'm not sure Sweden to the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) is a good example.  If you look in more detail at the proposals then you would be leaving Malmo, third largest city in Sweden at the southern tip, with a population smaller than Bristol, at 19:40 to arrive London at 11:57 next day with a change at Cologne.  This is based on timings from a Jan 2020 article in the Independent, from Malmo to Cologne, so two changes, rather than the one Graham quoted today to Brussels with the one change, but I imagine they would be similar in terms of journey time.

Could I hazard a guess why Malmo as a terminus?

It's not far from Copenhagen, a very large city (I think greater Copenhagen at over 1,800,000 is the largest Scandinavian urban area) would almost certainly be the last previous stop before a short trip over the Oresund Bridge to Malmo. Malmo itself has a "greater Malmo" population of 700,000, being part of a relatively populous area of SW Sweden, and also better onward rail links to the rest of Sweden. Put that all together and I think it makes sense. I hope to live long enough to book my ticket! 

[Celestial]

Cologne, Munich or Berlin to London maybe.  But I'm not sure Sweden to the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) is a good example.  If you look in more detail at the proposals then you would be leaving Malmo, third largest city in Sweden at the southern tip, with a population smaller than Bristol, at 19:40 to arrive London at 11:57 next day with a change at Cologne.  This is based on timings from a Jan 2020 article in the Independent, from Malmo to Cologne, so two changes, rather than the one Graham quoted today to Brussels with the one change, but I imagine they would be similar in terms of journey time.

Could I hazard a guess why Malmo as a terminus?

It's not far from Copenhagen, a very large city (I think greater Copenhagen at over 1,800,000 is the largest Scandinavian urban area) would almost certainly be the last previous stop before a short trip over the Oresund Bridge to Malmo. Malmo itself has a "greater Malmo" population of 700,000, being part of a relatively populous area of SW Sweden, and also better onward rail links to the rest of Sweden. Put that all together and I think it makes sense. I hope to live long enough to book my ticket! 

I'm guessing Malmo is viable with Copenhagen close by - obviously Swedish Railways would be unlikely to run a service only as far as Copenhagen. And as noted, with Stockholm a further 4hrs 40+ by day train, that becomes much less attractive in terms of journey times.

It would be lovely to jump on a sleeper at St Pancras, but I fear it unlikely. If I recall the spec (and thus cost) of the Nightstar vehicles was very high, due to the specific requirements of the tunnel, and I suspect the operating costs would be too.  And given the journey time as far as Brussels or Paris will be considerably slower than Eurostar (particularly if the service doesn't use the LGV^▸ (Large Goods Vehicle) across the channel as I think is common with sleepers), then probably quicker to change at Brussels or Paris. 

[Noggin]

I felt the article was clickbait - when you look at the details, it's an aspiration to get a sleeper train from Malmo to Brussels via Cologne, with getting the authorisations being seemingly tricky to do.

Personally, if I was in the sleeper train business, I'd be looking for pairs of cities about 8-10 hours apart by sleeper, with heavy expense-account business traffic. Perhaps Milan to Frankfurt, Paris to Madrid, Vienna to Frankfurt. I'd then put on a premium overnight service with decent catering for business travellers, cheaper 'classic' compartments with room-service, and 'capsule' pods to compete with Ryanair/bus. Train leaves at 11, arrives at 6, kick out at 7 to clear the platform for rush-hour, with a lounge at the end so the plebs can shower and shave. Run it as a joint venture, Accor for hotel & catering services, a freight operator for the traction and someone like Hitachi for the rolling stock.